M10-P or M10R

[SoarFM]

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On 2/21/2021 at 10:51 AM, SoarFM said:

Sigh, well here I am struggling with the same decision. I have a very beautiful M10P sitting here at my table for the last day. I’m either keeping it or returning it along with another wad of money for an M10R.

 My last digital M was an M9 that I sold 6+ years ago, and to be truthful, I never got on very good with it. Terrible high iso performance, the shutter was anything but discreet and lack of live view is what finally made me give it up as mirrorless cameras came of age with CMOS sensors and high resolution EVF’s. I tried to make my M lenses work on that infernal Sony A7r and A7r2, but never to my satisfaction. I just couldn’t accept smearing. So I sold all but my 35 and 50 summicrons and put them aside with my M6 (also 35 years old) that I couldn’t bear to part with for sentimental reasons.

Turns out the Sony’s output is really nice but every time I had to dive into a menu, I wanted to poke my eyes out, searching for some cool feature that was for some reason not working because some other setting change made that unavailable, well I had enough and got rid of it. Then some time with the MF Fujis including the GFX 100, but turns out it was more an exercise in chasing ultimate image quality while ignoring my unwillingness to actually haul that stuff around on a regular basis. Sold it all replacing it with a relatively more diminutive Hasselblad 907x, although still not an everyday driver...In the meantime I put together a Leica CL digital kit for actually carry about and practical family and family vacation photography. I really use the hell out of that kit, pandemic notwithstanding. Bought an M-L adapter for the M lenses on the CL, used it a few times but really just used the very remarkable 18-56 zoom that came with the CL. A Q2 was rationalized and added for low light indoor uses.😀

Then I decided to start scanning my analog archive with a pre-owned Panasonic S1r (for the pixel shift multi shot function) and a Sigma macro. It is light years ahead of flatbed scanning and works so well I started putting film in my film cameras again, including the M6. I can’t emphasize enough how pleased I am to have meaningful access to almost 30 years of negatives and slides to print on modern inkjets.  I decide upon the S1r for scanning because in the back of my mind I was aware that I could put all my CL lenses (L mount) on the S1r and then have IBIS capability and 20 megapixels available—if I wanted.  Then took out the M-L adapter and put my 35 and 50 on the S1r. Wow! 47 megapixel of niceness and none of the edge smearing that I saw on the Sonys (2 paragraphs back), not perfect on the 35 but real darn close. Focus peaking worked great. But it’s still more camera than I will carry around. For a moment I regretted not jumping right to the SL2 which has the clean interface I know from the Q2 and CL, but the S1r pre-owned was about $2k and an SL2 was going to be well over $5k and I wasn’t convinced I would still carry it regular. I just can’t picture myself buying Leica SL lenses, not because of the cost, but because of the size. No how, no way.

But my appetite has been whetted to use my diminutive M lenses on a camera I will carry. And the sour taste of the M9 is gone and while most of my time here on the L-forum has been focused on Q and CL cameras I have been aware that the digital rangefinder has really matured. So I bought an M10-P. It is slim and beautiful, and oh, that shutter, what a change from M9 days! I was a bit concerned about how I would get along with the rangefinder (focus accuracy) since eyeglasses became a part of my wardrobe. I know that digital is more demanding of focus than film. It’s going quite well, performance checking focus accuracy on the live view and picture review is very instructive. The fluid motion of focus and shutter release has returned helped out by setting 1/4f in auto. IBIS or high iso performance seem to serve the same function and now we have high iso performance, it places this camera in a different league of usability over film or the old M9. I’ve also found that I can frame, focus and shoot (at least indoors) using solely the rear screen quite well. That’s mostly how I use my Q2 indoors also. I am going to the Leica store tomorrow to pick up a Visolflex 020. I know some people swear by it, others say it sits in their bag unused. I get the feeling it is what will make the M useable, for me, close focusing (or critical focusing?) outdoors.

The only real decision is do I exchange the M10P for the M10R?  On the one hand, I am totally happy with the 24 megapixels of the CL for family photos and the Q2’s 47mp is nice (especially cropping)but not a must have (for the family photos), on the other hand the M lenses on the S1r really do shine with all those megapixels (except maybe near the edge) and I am quite happy with the 50 mp Hasselblad and starting to think that 40-50 mp might be my sweet spot. I think  I know what I am going to do.  There is a part of me that thinks keeping the M10P might be false economy, or is it keeping a camera that is everything the M10R is, save a few megapixels?

Sigh...

 

Ok, so what did I do...?

I exchanged the M10P (and some cash) for the M10R. I’ve only had the camera for a week now but I don’t seem to have any issues with camera shake vs. the M10P, but to be honest I only had the M10P for a coup;le days and the M10R hasn’t really seen wide usage in real life, just a bunch of test shots. I will accept that even if I didn’t see a night and day difference, I’m sure that there is a difference, that is the nature of working with a higher resolution sensor. So far I’ve been using 1/4f as min shutter speed and I’m OK with that. I put a diopter correction on the rangefinder and have now learned how to slide the eyeglasses up with my hand and I have the crisp clear viewfinder to work the rangefinder and the rangefinder is dead on. I had always struggled with the M9 rangefinder.

I had actually noticed that my 50 Summicron wasn’t dead on with the rangefinder at closer distances and sent that and its 35mm cousin into Leica for a CLA that was 25 years overdue, I asked them to pay special attention to focus calibration. Sadly the problems ran a little deeper, Leica has pronounced the 50 Summicron unrepairable with haze and coating damage between rear elements that are no longer available. 😢. I was never in love with the 50 Summicron and am wondering if perhaps it is due to what amounts to a “bad sample”? Lens arrives back tomorrow and I will examine it closer because I never noticed any obvious defects. Happily, the 35 doesn’t seem to have been afflicted with same problem and is getting overhauled.

Now I have to shop for a 50... Not the news I wanted....

The 50 summicron and Summilux are the two candidates. Going to Leica DC and put the lens on my camera and test in store and neighborhood near store. Go home. Pixel peep. Make decision.

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by SoarFM

[Crem]

Hi everyone, I'm new to this forum so apologies if this has already been covered. I'm about to buy my first Leica and I'm torn between picking up an excellent condition used m10p and a new m10r. Ignoring cost, I'm struggling to understand which would make better prints from dng files at ISO 6400 & 12800. I tend to shoot a lot of low light photos so ISO 6400 is fairly important and 12800 is rarely (but sometimes) needed. Which body would you recommend? Also which body would you recommend for the 35 Summilux FLE? It's unclear to me which lenses work best with the P vs the R. I've been struggling to find a good collection of raw files online to compare. Thank you for your advice.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Crem

[kokoshawnuff]

32 minutes ago, Steven said:

To me, the M10P is unusable at 6400, even less at 12800, and even less for printing. Unless it's for black and white. 

Ditto for the m10r. They both work at high ISO, just not that well. 

[Guest JMF]

10 minutes ago, kokoshawnuff said:

Ditto for the m10r. They both work at high ISO, just not that well. 

Tried the M10P recently at 6400 ISO and was disappointed ... 

[kokoshawnuff]

1 minute ago, JMF said:

Tried the M10P recently at 6400 ISO and was disappointed ... 

As Steven said, they’re both vast improvements over the M9 or M240, but I would never recommend one of the color Ms for high ISO use...

Certainly low light capable depending on the lens and the photographer though. 

[Fedro]

42 minutes ago, JMF said:

Tried the M10P recently at 6400 ISO and was disappointed ... 

honestly I would not use EITHER the M10P or M10R above 3200

And in fact while I love M colours when light is aplenty, I tend to convert a lot to B&W when it is not

For low light,I think, there are better colour cameras

[dkmoore]

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3200 is max for me as well and I have to pay way more attention to metering to make sure the exposure is solid to limit editing to bare minimal. 6400 can be ok if you nail exposure perfect and you don't have weird lighting. 

M10M on the other hand I'll go 10k with no problem (never had to go higher but I'm sure it is fine).

Edited March 5, 2021 by dkmoore

[Crem]

@Steven thanks for the feedback! I’m coming from Sony a7 bodies. Great cameras for stills and video, but really want a different experience. Love the a7 cameras but want something that slows me down and feels a bit less robotic. As crazy as it sounds it’s a “less is more” situation. Also the Leica lenses seem fantastic. Lots of options when factoring in vintage glass. Manual focus and exposure is absolutely fine for me. My perfect camera would be a M10p with the SL2S sensor. I do want something small and compact so I ruled out that body. 

[dkmoore]

2 minutes ago, Steven said:

What about m10p 10k but converted to bw in post ? Does that work ? 
when it’s nighttime, I took the habit to turn the jpeg settings to bw in my m10p because it’s more inspiring to review them than in colours. 

Never tried it. I only really use the M10R for family and travel. 95% of my photos are made with the M10 Monochrom.

I used to do this with the M240 and liked the images a lot, high ISO converted to B&W so I'd assume the M10 would do great. Leica does a nice job with nice tight "organic" looking grain.

[dkmoore]

4 minutes ago, Crem said:

@Steven thanks for the feedback! I’m coming from Sony a7 bodies. Great cameras for stills and video, but really want a different experience. Love the a7 cameras but want something that slows me down and feels a bit less robotic. As crazy as it sounds it’s a “less is more” situation. Also the Leica lenses seem fantastic. Lots of options when factoring in vintage glass. Manual focus and exposure is absolutely fine for me. My perfect camera would be a M10p with the SL2S sensor. I do want something small and compact so I ruled out that body. 

M10R sensor is fantastic. The only drawback is you have to pay attention to form and shake below 1/250. I've been testing this a lot over the past week or so and I am fine at lower speeds if I'm paying CLOSE attention to form. I'm usually super loose though.

I would love to see IBIS before any other technical advancement. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by dkmoore

[Peter Kilmister]

The push for more pixels is commercial. 24 Megapixels is better than film. 40 Megapixels is OK with IBIS. Rangefinders don't have IBIS. Do you need the extra megapixels?

[dkmoore]

3 hours ago, Peter Kilmister said:

The push for more pixels is commercial. 24 Megapixels is better than film. 40 Megapixels is OK with IBIS. Rangefinders don't have IBIS. Do you need the extra megapixels?

No, I don’t need anything except for water, oxygen, and food but I’m after far more than that. Are you only living off of those key elements of life?

I think not because I know I you have a 50 APO. 

[hdmesa]

16 hours ago, dkmoore said:

M10R sensor is fantastic. The only drawback is you have to pay attention to form and shake below 1/250. I've been testing this a lot over the past week or so and I am fine at lower speeds if I'm paying CLOSE attention to form. I'm usually super loose though.

I would love to see IBIS before any other technical advancement. 

Not sure if this is the case with the M, but on my R5 (about the same megapixels), shutter shock from the mechanical shutter can cause issues below 1/250, but particularly around 1/125. For some reason the vibration/resonance from the mechanical shutter on the R5 isn't as bad around 1/60 and below as it is right at 1/125. And the R5 has a very well-dampened mechanical shutter. I wish the M10/P/R allowed EFCS and ES. EFCS is a big help when shooting handheld at lower shutter speeds on a high-mp camera.

[Crem]

Everyone, thank you so much for the feedback. I've definitely learned a lot of valuable information from this community. @Steven thanks for posting photos. I've had similar orange problems with Sony SOOC in low light. Usually I can fix it reasonably well in Lightroom, but it's nice to know the SL2S take cares of it. I'm hoping they put the SL2S sensor in the M11. I'm leaning toward picking up a lightly used M10P now since I have a feeling I'll want to upgrade to a M11 someday. I may have to trade the Sony towards a SL2S and go all Leica.

[Crem]

 I should clarify by "reasonably well" I mostly mean screwing with white balance and tint to get something acceptable (assuming I properly ETTR with the A7R4 ). Otherwise it's hit the B&W button, play with contrast, and call it done. The Sony is definitely not as nice as your SL2S SOOC. I hear you on the addiction part. I already have my next two lenses picked out... 

[Crem]

On 3/7/2021 at 12:29 AM, Steven said:

Which ones ! 

35 summilux fle is my first lens since that’s my favorite everyday focal length. Next two lenses: 75 summicron and 21 super elmar. My bank account tells me I should check out the voigtlander 21ultron since it’s my least used of the 3.

[kinch123]

8 minutes ago, Crem said:

35 summilux fle is my first lens since that’s my favorite everyday focal length. Next two lenses: 75 summicron and 21 super elmar. My bank account tells me I should check out the voigtlander 21ultron since it’s my least used of the 3.

Devil's Advocate Here: Crop from your high end current year smartphone's ultra-wide camera to get 21mm FOV and sell the 21SEM. Disclaimer: I haven't taken my own advice yet!

Edited March 9, 2021 by kinch123

[Crem]

@kinch123 I have had mostly bad experiences with cell phone cameras (even the latest and greatest). They do work well at base ISO, but quickly turn to junk due to the tiny sensor and extreme noise reduction. The only feature of cell phone cameras I really like is auto HDR for very casual family type photos. I do hope more manufacturers add that kind of bracketing for casual moments. Except for that feature, I will find much more joy in using a Leica and a real 21mm lens. If you decide to give-away/sell your 21SEM I'll happily give it a good home!

Edited March 9, 2021 by Crem

[Thejoon]

Hi all, 

I was told that, besides of resolution difference between R and P, the color rendering is also different. 

He (R user) said R produces a bit lower saturation, which results in more transparent look. 

Anyone felt the same way - SOOC color rendering difference between R and P?

Thanks

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[IMAGEPOWER]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Thejoon:

Hi all, 

I was told that, besides of resolution difference between R and P, the color rendering is also different. 

He (R user) said R produces a bit lower saturation, which results in more transparent look. 

Anyone felt the same way - SOOC color rendering difference between R and P?

Thanks

It's pretty much just saturation rather than color rendering. If I increase color saturation (HIGH) in my M10-R, the results are actually almost identical to those of my M10-P Reporter set on NORMAL saturation (latest firmware on both bodies), i.e. I can use both cameras for the same project being sure colors match. However, M10-R color was tweaked during the last 2 firmware updates. It's only since the latest update that I actually have come to love the colors of the M10-R just like those on the M10-P (I do know that the latest firmware update officially tackled perspective correction only but I am pretty sure color rendition was taken care of as well)