M10-P or M10R

[i-Leica]

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vor 22 Minuten schrieb Steven:

Im leaving on a month trip to Colombia this Friday, with the D as my only M. Ask me again upon my return on the first of March and I’ll give you my definitive answer. Ideally, I plan to keep only one of the two bodies on the long run. 

I am curious what you will tell - the M10-D is also my favorite M as for the experience of the M-photography - have a nice trip

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[Kim Dahl]

47 minutes ago, Steven said:

I have both the P and the D. 
Added the D two weeks ago. At this point, I still love it, but I’m not sure yet that I could have a D with the safety of also owning a P with a screen as backup (although I haven’t missed the P yet). 
The way I see it is that of course I love having a screen, it’s more flexible and I don’t have a chimping problem, but the D experience is so beautiful. Not only because it makes you approach photography differently and everything else that comes with it, but also because it’s simply a beautiful object that you want to watch and touch all the time. After using the D for a few days, looking at the back of the P is quite disgusting. 
 

Im leaving on a month trip to Colombia this Friday, with the D as my only M. Ask me again upon my return on the first of March and I’ll give you my definitive answer. Ideally, I plan to keep only one of the two bodies on the long run. 

Hi Steven

I'm excited to hear what you think.  I have Leica MD and love it.  I like the iso setting on the back of the camera.  I might want the M10D with a better sensor.  I do not need the screen.  So I think I would rather buy SL2s with 24 MP and all the modern for that use.

[Kim Dahl]

23 minutes ago, Steven said:

I didn’t see it coming but this is kind of turning out to be the perfect combo for me. 
Sl2s and all it’s modern perks as my all rounder camera.
 

M10D for a different kind of photography; Since I am only using M lenses on the SL2S and getting better results than with my M, I almost didn’t touch my M10P anymore. But having the D changes everything as it’s such a cool and traditional object to use, and I use it for a very different style of photography than the SL2S. 
 

As a third body, I also have a compact, AF enabled Q2, which i mainly use now when walking around with family, but which I could also confidently bring as my only camera for let’s say my one month photo trip to Colombia, just to give an example, because it is such a versatile camera if you only need stills and no video, and the photos that come out of it are like nothing I’ve ever seen before. 
the look of the images remind me so much of the IQ of the SL2 and 35 APO sl that I’m pretty sure that it can be considered as a mini SL2 + the soon to be released SL28... with worst autofocus but better DOF. 

I think we're in the same boat.  I think of M as something completely different.  At work as a press photographer, we use the Nikon D5 and it's bread and butter. I almost never use it privately. I have not yet bought SL because I will only use it with M lenses as you (maybe a single SL lens)   But I'm afraid the kit will get too big and I will not use it enough....  I'm not as quick to decide as you are.  Probably mostly because of the money.  I need to be more sure it's an ok investment.  I also have TL2 with a TL 35 F / 1.4.  Sharpness and modern look ok (In my part of the country it means - FANTASTIC ☺️) - but the camera is slow and far below competitors.  If the new CL2 is as good as the SL2s, I might be tempted. But I'm a little drawn to SL2s because it's full frame.  Then my Leica M (D) will be my slow and retro camera.  Maybe with 28f5.6 and 50 1.2 .... Can only say I am very happy with my Leica MD

[Pixeleater]

On 1/31/2021 at 1:33 AM, Steven said:

Because the higher resolution introduced motion blur in 80% of my shots/shooting scenario. I had to be around 1/500th to not worry about it. Every time in zoomed in my photos, I could see motion blur, which made the extra pixels useless to me, so I went back to the P for peace of mind. 

Havent regretted it for a second. The R wasn’t the tool for me. It might be for others. Just don’t believe those that tell you that the R and lack of ibis has no impact of handheld shooting. If they don’t see motion blur, they’re likely shooting landscapes, of apples in a jar on a table. Not street like me at least. 

Steven, with the M10-R at 1/500 to eliminate motion blur what shutter speed do you now use on the M10-P for the same scenario? What was your ISO for both? Thanks.

[Pixeleater]

7 hours ago, Steven said:

What I struggled to shoot at 1/250th on my R, I can effortlessly shoot at 1/60th on my P. 1/60th is the max shutter speed I allow in auto mode on my P. When the light is lower, I go down to 1/30th manually and manage to get what I need. 
ISO was in auto on the R, with a cap at 1600.

Thanks.

[SoarFM]

Sigh, well here I am struggling with the same decision. I have a very beautiful M10P sitting here at my table for the last day. I’m either keeping it or returning it along with another wad of money for an M10R.

 My last digital M was an M9 that I sold 6+ years ago, and to be truthful, I never got on very good with it. Terrible high iso performance, the shutter was anything but discreet and lack of live view is what finally made me give it up as mirrorless cameras came of age with CMOS sensors and high resolution EVF’s. I tried to make my M lenses work on that infernal Sony A7r and A7r2, but never to my satisfaction. I just couldn’t accept smearing. So I sold all but my 35 and 50 summicrons and put them aside with my M6 (also 35 years old) that I couldn’t bear to part with for sentimental reasons.

Turns out the Sony’s output is really nice but every time I had to dive into a menu, I wanted to poke my eyes out, searching for some cool feature that was for some reason not working because some other setting change made that unavailable, well I had enough and got rid of it. Then some time with the MF Fujis including the GFX 100, but turns out it was more an exercise in chasing ultimate image quality while ignoring my unwillingness to actually haul that stuff around on a regular basis. Sold it all replacing it with a relatively more diminutive Hasselblad 907x, although still not an everyday driver...In the meantime I put together a Leica CL digital kit for actually carry about and practical family and family vacation photography. I really use the hell out of that kit, pandemic notwithstanding. Bought an M-L adapter for the M lenses on the CL, used it a few times but really just used the very remarkable 18-56 zoom that came with the CL. A Q2 was rationalized and added for low light indoor uses.😀

Then I decided to start scanning my analog archive with a pre-owned Panasonic S1r (for the pixel shift multi shot function) and a Sigma macro. It is light years ahead of flatbed scanning and works so well I started putting film in my film cameras again, including the M6. I can’t emphasize enough how pleased I am to have meaningful access to almost 30 years of negatives and slides to print on modern inkjets.  I decide upon the S1r for scanning because in the back of my mind I was aware that I could put all my CL lenses (L mount) on the S1r and then have IBIS capability and 20 megapixels available—if I wanted.  Then took out the M-L adapter and put my 35 and 50 on the S1r. Wow! 47 megapixel of niceness and none of the edge smearing that I saw on the Sonys (2 paragraphs back), not perfect on the 35 but real darn close. Focus peaking worked great. But it’s still more camera than I will carry around. For a moment I regretted not jumping right to the SL2 which has the clean interface I know from the Q2 and CL, but the S1r pre-owned was about $2k and an SL2 was going to be well over $5k and I wasn’t convinced I would still carry it regular. I just can’t picture myself buying Leica SL lenses, not because of the cost, but because of the size. No how, no way.

But my appetite has been whetted to use my diminutive M lenses on a camera I will carry. And the sour taste of the M9 is gone and while most of my time here on the L-forum has been focused on Q and CL cameras I have been aware that the digital rangefinder has really matured. So I bought an M10-P. It is slim and beautiful, and oh, that shutter, what a change from M9 days! I was a bit concerned about how I would get along with the rangefinder (focus accuracy) since eyeglasses became a part of my wardrobe. I know that digital is more demanding of focus than film. It’s going quite well, performance checking focus accuracy on the live view and picture review is very instructive. The fluid motion of focus and shutter release has returned helped out by setting 1/4f in auto. IBIS or high iso performance seem to serve the same function and now we have high iso performance, it places this camera in a different league of usability over film or the old M9. I’ve also found that I can frame, focus and shoot (at least indoors) using solely the rear screen quite well. That’s mostly how I use my Q2 indoors also. I am going to the Leica store tomorrow to pick up a Visolflex 020. I know some people swear by it, others say it sits in their bag unused. I get the feeling it is what will make the M useable, for me, close focusing (or critical focusing?) outdoors.

The only real decision is do I exchange the M10P for the M10R?  On the one hand, I am totally happy with the 24 megapixels of the CL for family photos and the Q2’s 47mp is nice (especially cropping)but not a must have (for the family photos), on the other hand the M lenses on the S1r really do shine with all those megapixels (except maybe near the edge) and I am quite happy with the 50 mp Hasselblad and starting to think that 40-50 mp might be my sweet spot. I think  I know what I am going to do.  There is a part of me that thinks keeping the M10P might be false economy, or is it keeping a camera that is everything the M10R is, save a few megapixels?

Sigh...

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by SoarFM

[dkmoore]

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19 minutes ago, SoarFM said:

Sigh, well here I am struggling with the same decision. I have a very beautiful M10P sitting here at my table for the last day. I’m either keeping it or returning it along with another wad of money for an M10R.

 My last digital M was an M9 that I sold 6+ years ago, and to be truthful, I never got on very good with it. Terrible high iso performance, the shutter was anything but discreet and lack of live view is what finally made me give it up as mirrorless cameras came of age with CMOS sensors and high resolution EVF’s. I tried to make my M lenses work on that infernal Sony A7r and A7r2, but never to my satisfaction. I just couldn’t accept smearing. So I sold all but my 35 and 50 summicrons and put them aside with my M6 (also 35 years old) that I couldn’t bear to part with for sentimental reasons.

Turns out the Sony’s output is really nice but every time I had to dive into a menu, I wanted to poke my eyes out, searching for some cool feature that was for some reason not working because some other setting change made that unavailable, well I had enough and got rid of it. Then some time with the MF Fujis including the GFX 100, but turns out it was more an exercise in chasing ultimate image quality while ignoring my unwillingness to actually haul that stuff around on a regular basis. Sold it all replacing it with a relatively more diminutive Hasselblad 907x, although still not an everyday driver...In the meantime I put together a Leica CL digital kit for actually carry about and practical family and family vacation photography. I really use the hell out of that kit, pandemic notwithstanding. Bought an M-L adapter for the M lenses on the CL, used it a few times but really just used the very remarkable 18-56 zoom that came with the CL. A Q2 was rationalized and added for low light indoor uses.😀

Then I decided to start scanning my analog archive with a pre-owned Panasonic S1r (for the pixel shift multi shot function) and a Sigma macro. It is light years ahead of flatbed scanning and works so well I started putting film in my film cameras again, including the M6. I can’t emphasize enough how pleased I am to have meaningful access to almost 30 years of negatives and slides to print on modern inkjets.  I decide upon the S1r for scanning because in the back of my mind I was aware that I could put all my CL lenses (L mount) on the S1r and then have IBIS capability and 20 megapixels available—if I wanted.  Then took out the M-L adapter and put my 35 and 50 on the S1r. Wow! 47 megapixel of niceness and none of the edge smearing that I saw on the Sonys (2 paragraphs back), not perfect on the 35 but real darn close. Focus peaking worked great. But it’s still more camera than I will carry around. For a moment I regretted not jumping right to the SL2 which has the clean interface I know from the Q2 and CL, but the S1r pre-owned was about $2k and an SL2 was going to be well over $5k and I wasn’t convinced I would still carry it regular. I just can’t picture myself buying Leica SL lenses, not because of the cost, but because of the size. No how, no way.

But my appetite has been whetted to use my diminutive M lenses on a camera I will carry. And the sour taste of the M9 is gone and while most of my time here on the L-forum has been focused on Q and CL cameras I have been aware that the digital rangefinder has really matured. So I bought an M10-P. It is slim and beautiful, and oh, that shutter, what a change from M9 days! I was a bit concerned about how I would get along with the rangefinder (focus accuracy) since eyeglasses became a part of my wardrobe. I know that digital is more demanding of focus than film. It’s going quite well, performance checking focus accuracy on the live view and picture review is very instructive. The fluid motion of focus and shutter release has returned helped out by setting 1/4f in auto. IBIS or high iso performance seem to serve the same function and now we have high iso performance, it places this camera in a different league of usability over film or the old M9. I’ve also found that I can frame, focus and shoot (at least indoors) using solely the rear screen quite well. That’s mostly how I use my Q2 indoors also. I am going to the Leica store tomorrow to pick up a Visolflex 020. I know some people swear by it, others say it sits in their bag unused. I get the feeling it is what will make the M useable, for me, close focusing (or critical focusing?) outdoors.

The only real decision is do I exchange the M10P for the M10R?  On the one hand, I am totally happy with the 24 megapixels of the CL for family photos and the Q2’s 47mp is nice (especially cropping)but not a must have (for the family photos), on the other hand the M lenses on the S1r really do shine with all those megapixels (except maybe near the edge) and I am quite happy with the 50 mp Hasselblad and starting to think that 40-50 mp might be my sweet spot. I think  I know what I am going to do.  There is a part of me that thinks keeping the M10P might be false economy, or is it keeping a camera that is everything the M10R is, save a few megapixels?

Sigh...

 

My two cents (or one) after moving from the M10P to the M10R is that if you will be using the M for general family snaps indoor, never on tripod, and simply for fun then I would stick with the M10P.  
 

At first I argued against all of the shutter speed talk of needing high speed for the M10R but after many months of use I have to admit that it truly is a challenge and I keep around 120-200 minimum and even that can be challenging. 
 

But, the image quality is noticeably better with the M10R which is the only reason I haven’t gone back to the M10P. I can see why it would be a hard decision. 

[dkmoore]

2 hours ago, Steven said:week I expressed my concerns with shutter speeds. I got bashed, insulted, drained in the mud.... 

And now, little by little, across different threads, people are joining me 😇☺️💕🥳🥳🥳 I am not crazy after all. 

You are not crazy after all. 😎 

[Jeff S]

The Leica Miami guys (Red Dot Forum), Hugh Brownstone (Three Blind Men... videos) and others have for some time supported the need for higher shutter speed with the higher MP bodies.

BTW, here’s another ISO comparison by Red Dot Forum...

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2021/02/bw-iso-showdown-2021-leica-q2-monochrom-vs-m10-monochrom-vs-q2-vs-m10-r/
 

Jeff

[dkmoore]

45 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The Leica Miami guys (Red Dot Forum), Hugh Brownstone (Three Blind Men... videos) and others have for some time supported the need for higher shutter speed with the higher MP bodies.

BTW, here’s another ISO comparison by Red Dot Forum...

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2021/02/bw-iso-showdown-2021-leica-q2-monochrom-vs-m10-monochrom-vs-q2-vs-m10-r/
 

Jeff

Interesting read, thanks for sharing. 

I've found myself shooting between 2000-3200 ISO indoors to get shutter speed to 250 Whereas the M10P I was comfortable at around 800-1000 at 60-90. The image quality is definitely better at these settings on the M10P for indoor family type shots simply because of a stop less ISO. The internal debate has been going on for a couple of months whether or not to trade the R back to the P.

[Jeff S]

12 minutes ago, dkmoore said:

Interesting read, thanks for sharing. 

I've found myself shooting between 2000-3200 ISO indoors to get shutter speed to 250 Whereas the M10P I was comfortable at around 800-1000 at 60-90. The image quality is definitely better at these settings on the M10P for indoor family type shots simply because of a stop less ISO. The internal debate has been going on for a couple of months whether or not to trade the R back to the P.

I saved the internal debate and stuck with the standard M10, which satisfies along with the MM1.  I may rent the M10 Monochrom for a week, though, just to see what all the fuss is about and to break the pandemic monotony. Will be interesting to see if my prints remain sharp.

Jeff

[dkmoore]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

I saved the internal debate and stuck with the standard M10, which satisfies along with the MM1.  I may rent the M10 Monochrom for a week, though, just to see what all the fuss is about and to break the pandemic monotony. Will be interesting to see if my prints remain sharp.

Jeff

Yes, your prints will remain sharp. Ha ha. 

The M10M is by far my favorite Leica Camera by a mile and I've owned them all. lol. It's kinda weird how much I enjoy the M10M.   :  )

[Jeff S]

11 hours ago, dkmoore said:

Yes, your prints will remain sharp. Ha ha. 

The M10M is by far my favorite Leica Camera by a mile and I've owned them all. lol. It's kinda weird how much I enjoy the M10M.   :  )

Didn’t the M10M present the same shutter speed requirements as the R?  Or didn’t you own the M10M long enough before the R to anticipate the R’s behavior?
 

Jeff

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Didn’t the M10M present the same shutter speed requirements as the R?  Or didn’t you own the M10M long enough before the R to anticipate the R’s behavior?
 

Jeff

No, not in my experience Jeff. I have owned the M10-M, ( buying so I was told the first one available in France at the time ), since the intial release and I have never had the "camera shake" problem with that camera even using down to relatively slower shutter speeds, under 125th, so that's weird I guess........But when I had the M10-R loaner from my dealer for about ten days this problem came up far too often, so much so that I thought it may have been "operator error" or a camera / mechanical fault, ( whatever that could have been ???? ). Then doing a side by side test with my P and the R under same conditions and shutter settings hand-held the R gave me "camera shake" problems, the P did not. So I didn't make the trade up, it wasn't worth it for me.

Having said all that these were my own experiences, using both the M's as I normally would and have been doing so for way too long to remember, it could be the way I use them, other's handling may well give different results of course. For those that are happy with the R that's really good news, may Leica and the M line continue to develop and flourish, ( but keep the OVF rangefinder or I'm gone ).

[Jeff S]

17 minutes ago, petermullett said:

No, not in my experience Jeff. I have owned the M10-M, ( buying so I was told the first one available in France at the time ), since the intial release and I have never had the "camera shake" problem with that camera even using down to relatively slower shutter speeds, under 125th, so that's weird I guess........But when I had the M10-R loaner from my dealer for about ten days this problem came up far too often, so much so that I thought it may have been "operator error" or a camera / mechanical fault, ( whatever that could have been ???? ). Then doing a side by side test with my P and the R under same conditions and shutter settings hand-held the R gave me "camera shake" problems, the P did not. So I didn't make the trade up, it wasn't worth it for me.

Having said all that these were my own experiences, using both the M's as I normally would and have been doing so for way too long to remember, it could be the way I use them, other's handling may well give different results of course. For those that are happy with the R that's really good news, may Leica and the M line continue to develop and flourish, ( but keep the OVF rangefinder or I'm gone ).

Thanks, Peter.  I have no idea why the M10M and M10R would perform differently in this regard. The sensor is the same except for the Bayer Array. Strange.  The only high MP camera I own is the SL2, and that has IBIS to address shake.  I've shot M's since the 80's with no issues, even at low speeds, but haven't yet tried the R or the M10 Mono. I, too, shoot using RF only on my Ms; the SL2 is a different beast.

Jeff

[Guest]

 

7 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Thanks, Peter.  I have no idea why the M10M and M10R would perform differently in this regard. The sensor is the same except for the Bayer Array. Strange.  The only high MP camera I own is the SL2, and that has IBIS to address shake.  I've shot M's since the 80's with no issues, even at low speeds, but haven't yet tried the R or the M10 Mono. I, too, shoot using RF only on my Ms; the SL2 is a different beast.

Jeff

Yes it's odd.....are the M and the R really the same sensor, I thought not but maybe I'm wrong. I have even shot the M10-M hand held with a pinhole plate and sure nothing is what you could honestly describe as "in focus" but I think I can differentiate between camera shake and an out of focus image and I don't see any shake effects with the M10-M. 

By the way, I've the MM1 too, and still love it's output and character, ( not the shutter sound though, never did ), and I've zero regrets on getting the M10-M and keeping both. I think the M10-M is Leica's finest digital M to date, if you do try one you could well be hooked too.

[anickpick]

I am surprised by the negative reports.

I most often  use 1/125 as min. shutter speed, and have no problems at all with getting sharp results with the R consistently.

Edited February 22, 2021 by anickpick

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, petermullett said:

 

Yes it's odd.....are the M and the R really the same sensor, I thought not but maybe I'm wrong. I have even shot the M10-M hand held with a pinhole plate and sure nothing is what you could honestly describe as "in focus" but I think I can differentiate between camera shake and an out of focus image and I don't see any shake effects with the M10-M. 

By the way, I've the MM1 too, and still love it's output and character, ( not the shutter sound though, never did ), and I've zero regrets on getting the M10-M and keeping both. I think the M10-M is Leica's finest digital M to date, if you do try one you could well be hooked too.

Yes, the M10 Monochrom and M10-R sensor architecture was derived from the S3. This has been covered here and elsewhere (see Red Dot Forum). Usually the color M comes first, and then the Bayer array is omitted for the mono version.  In this instance, the sensor was new for both versions, so it apparently took more time to deal with color issues for the R, which was released after.

I also use the MM1 (with M10) and haven’t needed more.  But I might rent the M10M just to see what all the fuss is about, and to see if it would make any difference for my style of shooting and printing.  I already know that I’ll prefer the M10 vs M9 platform, having experienced both.  But that alone isn’t worth the expense for me.

Jeff

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[anickpick]

If 1/30 is safe with the M10P, 1/45 will be safe with the M10R. That‘s my experience.

[Matlock]

4 minutes ago, anickpick said:

If 1/30 is safe with the M10P, 1/45 will be safe with the M10R. That‘s my experience.

I regularly use 1/60 and 1/125 with absolutely no problems with the M10-R but I believe it all depends on your method of working. If you constantly take photos 'on the run' then a higher speed is required.

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Matlock