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Leica M10R high ISO Skin tone Issues

malfaris

By malfaris
in Leica M10

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malfaris

malfaris

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Hi guys

yesterday I got my M10R just before leaving with the kids to indoor theme park, and to be honest wasn't happy with the skin tone especially at high ISO. Actually I wasn't happy with any of the shots, let it be clear I pushed the camera because I wanted shutter around 1/125 to get sharp images, that's why most shot were around 3200-6400 on Auto ISO . still most images were too noisy and soft and kinda flat, what's even worse the skin tone at high ISO was bad almost dead like. Maybe my expectations is high coming from M9 , but still I am not happy with the look. I added a link to raw images, second link to show the difference in color between raw and jpg, third link to show M9 at ISO 1000 which were I limit it, only first image rest are lower ISO but pleasing skin tone in general. would appreciate if you checked them and gave me your feedback , if I have a bad copy. 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/32sxrtpchporidz/AAApAwbYmJd9aBIm2UwQ7Xz-a?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/inept1pmjsugd6s/AAAcTzbPPV2d2BWzjYTKgp81a?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lvtx0t8w8z9vup9/AABvfR7UHrqNFthPSKIDkqM1a?dl=0

also I might agree with this review regarding high ISO performance maybe not as extreme as some of his image but skin tone are pale for sure.

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/07/16/the-true-successor-to-the-leica-m9-leica-m10r-review/

Edited by malfaris
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malfaris

malfaris

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35 minutes ago, elmars said:

There was bad light and bad post processing (really none I think). So Your Pictures say nothing about the Colors at high ISO. 

it was not processed these are DNG file. its low light situation not a bad light , did you see how Leica M9 handle almost same situation its not identical but at the end of the day I am pleased with the look , the M9 did underexpose and M10 meter it differently and wasn't pleased with it

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Casey Jefferson

Casey Jefferson

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I must say I'm impressed. Adjust the white balance and you'll have a good start. The reds are hot but skin tone seems no issue at all. Pushing close to 3 stops @ISO 4000 is a dream for M240 shooter like me...

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malfaris

malfaris

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thank you guys for the feedback , I know you can always fix an image . but when you changed the white balance to change the skin tone the rest of the image look different than reality. even the image were there is more light still didn't like it. anyhow my dealer asked me to rest the camera and try different light situation will try when get back from work. and update this thread. 

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Casey Jefferson

Casey Jefferson

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15 minutes ago, malfaris said:

thank you guys for the feedback , I know you can always fix an image . but when you changed the white balance to change the skin tone the rest of the image look different than reality. even the image were there is more light still didn't like it. anyhow my dealer asked me to rest the camera and try different light situation will try when get back from work. and update this thread. 

Everyone sees colors differently, especially when the final images are adjusted to normal exposure which is brighter than the actual scene, or scene with 2 different lighting temperatures, we will definitely see some foreign colors popping up that seemingly wasn't there in real life. Hard to compare the latest sensor and processing to the good old CCD sensors, but I like what I'm seeing. Thanks for the real life samples!

EDIT: I also downloaded the M9 and now I understand why you prefer the M9 images. There's just something "right" about that CCD sensors...

Edited by Casey Jefferson
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malfaris

malfaris

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2 minutes ago, Casey Jefferson said:

Everyone sees colors differently, especially when the final images are adjusted to normal exposure which is brighter than the actual scene, or scene with 2 different lighting temperatures, we will definitely see some foreign colors popping up that seemingly wasn't there in real life. Hard to compare the latest sensor and processing to the good old CCD sensors, but I like what I'm seeing. Thanks for the real life samples!

I appreciate your feedback , will post more

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250swb

250swb

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The skin tones look ok by just pressing 'Auto' to develop the .dng. A lot of them seem under exposed and the one I chose to develop was shot at 1/45th so not the 1/125th you were aiming for, so maybe check your menu and adjust the minimum speed for auto exposure.

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LocalHero1953

LocalHero1953

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A scene like this has multiple light colour sources, and the camera AWB will respond mainly to the light which is BEHIND your kids, not the light on their faces - so it's not surprising it's got it wrong in the unadjusted DNG. My approach is to adjust the WB for skin tone (only you know what it should be) and let the rest of the colours fall as they must. If this is such a valuable shot that you want to get all colours right, you have to start masking and locally adjusting WB. To me this is a nice family shot which is never going to be a master work, so I suggest you just accept it for what it is. Dealing with awkward WB is just an occupational hazard of urban night time photography.

Edit. I've just done what I should have done first, which is look at your links. It doesn't change my comments, though. I note that all the problematical ones have well-lit backgrounds, while the faces are not well-lit. Both the camera exposure meter and AWB will respond mainly to the background scene, not the foreground faces. Remember that M exposure meters are at best centre weighted, and not spot, so bright lights in the background will render poorly-lit faces dark. Another occupational hazard: this time for M-shooters. 

Edit. Final hacker's guide to problematic colour. Turn it B&W.

Edited by LocalHero1953
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dkmoore

dkmoore

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5 hours ago, malfaris said:

Hi guys

yesterday I got my M10R just before leaving with the kids to indoor theme park, and to be honest wasn't happy with the skin tone especially at high ISO. Actually I wasn't happy with any of the shots, let it be clear I pushed the camera because I wanted shutter around 1/125 to get sharp images, that's why most shot were around 3200-6400 on Auto ISO . still most images were too noisy and soft and kinda flat, what's even worse the skin tone at high ISO was bad almost dead like. Maybe my expectations is high coming from M9 , but still I am not happy with the look. I added a link to raw images, second link to show the difference in color between raw and jpg, third link to show M9 at ISO 1000 which were I limit it, only first image rest are lower ISO but pleasing skin tone in general. would appreciate if you checked them and gave me your feedback , if I have a bad copy. 

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/32sxrtpchporidz/AAApAwbYmJd9aBIm2UwQ7Xz-a?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/inept1pmjsugd6s/AAAcTzbPPV2d2BWzjYTKgp81a?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/lvtx0t8w8z9vup9/AABvfR7UHrqNFthPSKIDkqM1a?dl=0

also I might agree with this review regarding high ISO performance maybe not as extreme as some of his image but skin tone are pale for sure.

https://www.thephoblographer.com/2020/07/16/the-true-successor-to-the-leica-m9-leica-m10r-review/

Also check firmware. Many of the M10Rs were shipped with prior firmware. I had to update mine. 

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malfaris

malfaris

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3 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I'd take it a step further: the ONLY point of shooting raw is because you will make adjustments. Otherwise just shoot JPG.

not true with other cameras they look very good out of the camera even my old cameras raw files from canon 5D3 and M9 , I do adjust to some extend . regarding WB I tried to change it but the whole image became warm, now I have to do local adjustment to get it write.besides the JPGs looks worse. by the way I shoot raw since 2006.

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malfaris

malfaris

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1 hour ago, Daedalus2000 said:

What lightroom profile? By showing the dngs all we see is a preview of the embedded jpeg.

I tried them all standard and adobe color which the one I always use. I uploaded dngs for ppl to check that's its not my post processing that is causing the issue. anyhow my dealer is sending the raw files to German to check them out.

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malfaris

malfaris

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2 hours ago, Daedalus2000 said:

What lightroom profile? By showing the dngs all we see is a preview of the embedded jpeg.

quick update, I am seeing good improvement using the camera profile in LR , I am used to adobe profiles as I like them better than my canon and even M9 profiles. now with M10R things are different , using the camera profile under the name LEICA M10-R seeing changing in white balance and color of skin improved too.

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LocalHero1953

LocalHero1953

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1 hour ago, malfaris said:

not true with other cameras they look very good out of the camera even my old cameras raw files from canon 5D3 and M9 , I do adjust to some extend . regarding WB I tried to change it but the whole image became warm, now I have to do local adjustment to get it write.besides the JPGs looks worse. by the way I shoot raw since 2006.

A matter of preference, I guess. I found the M9 raws too strong/garish/technicolor/poster OOC (I know this isn't a popular opinion!), and much preferred the flatter images that came with the M240 and now, it seems, with the M10/M10R (neither of which I've used) - I find them easier as 'raw' material from which to create my own images. 

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