Is the latest 50mm non-APO Summicron still flare prone?

[logan2z]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I've been thinking about adding a 50mm lens to my kit and the non-APO Summicron is an attractive option.  However, I have read some older threads that talk about this lens's tendency to flare.  Is that still the case with the latest version of this lens? 

I shoot film exclusively so don't have the option of live view to alert me to flare in advance.

[a.noctilux]

In my use since long, the latest Summicron-M 2/50mm are not really flare prone or not.

In my thousands of pictures, maybe only small fraction have that flarey "look", only operator's faults in my case.

Now I find that the Summarit-M 2.5/50 that I use for some years now is "better" in "flarey situations", but not "perfect" neither.

I've used dozen of different Summicron 50mm, each one needed to be learned (as usual) by myself, and use (or not) with knowledge.

If you can find the very nicely built 50th anniversary of Summicron, for me it's the best version when we add the hood 12585.

I keep those two same optical formula after using black lenses like those, here

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

left is M mount, right LTM same optical formula

[fotografr]

I had a fairly early version (1960) and had no flare problems at all. It was a great little lens and I only sold it because I acquired the 50mm APO. I've not used the newer versions but would certainly expect the lens coatings to have only improved. There was a flare problem with early 50mm APO lenses but it was quickly resolved.

Edited July 14, 2020 by fotografr

[lct]

People swearing they don't have flare problems are those shooting with the sun behind them i suspect . Just kidding. Among 50mm lenses, the Summicron 50/2 v5 is neither the worse nor the best. Main problem is flare when strong light sources are just outside the frame. Easy to avoid with a hat, an umbrella or cupping the hand around the lens but the built-in hood can nothing against that. For better results there, you may wish to try other Leica (M 50/1.4 asph, 50/1.4 pre-asph, 50/2 apo, 50/2.5, 50/2.8 v2) or non Leica (ZM 50/1.5, CV 50/2.5) lenses.

Edited July 14, 2020 by lct

[jdlaing]

All flare is caused by the user.

[TomB_tx]

It can show "central veiling flare" as noted by LCT, which can vary in intensity, clouding the mid image. The Summarit-M 50 (2.5 & 2.4) can also show this, as was also seen in early samples of the 50 APO Summicron. While I have had it happen, it's not a bad issue, and can be avoided (as noted by jdlaing).

The Zeiss Planar ZM 50 is probably the most flare resistant common 50, but overall I prefer the Summicron (V) rendering - or the 2.5 Summarit.

[Herr Barnack]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

40 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

All flare is caused by the user.

Operator error.

[jdlaing]

Exactly.

[Jeff S]

One could make a similar argument that many perceived lens ‘flaws’ are due to user error... fringing, undesirable bokeh effects, etc...as one could learn to avoid situations that produce the undesired effect and/or counteract them by various means.  

The point, though, is that some lenses are more prone to exhibit certain effects, and in a broader range of shooting conditions, than others.

And sometimes flare adds to a photo rather than detracts, so not user error when used creatively and intentionally.

Jeff

Edited July 14, 2020 by Jeff S

[logan2z]

27 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The point, though, is that some lenses are more prone to exhibit certain effects, and in a broader range of shooting conditions, than others.

That goes to the heart of my question, Jeff.  No lens is perfect, they all exhibit flaws.  But I seem to read quite a bit more about flaring in the 50mm Summicrons (and 35mm ASPH) than other lenses.  So I wonder if there is some aspect of their optical design that makes them more prone to flare.  Or is it simply that  buyers of these lenses are particularly inept at using them?

[TomB_tx]

I think there is a characteristic in the Summicron layout, or in the optimization of other factors, that gives the family this tendency. I first noticed it in 1969 shooting a ver1 Summicron R on my Leicaflex SL. That lens fed the Summicron M ver III that I also bought about that time. The III design was modified to the IV (& V) design, which ultimately fed the 2.5 Summarit. All of these can exhibit the effect.

However, the APO is a fresh, very different design, and of course they had a recall of that for a central flare issue.

Perhaps the Leica design philosophy to optimize certain other characteristics doesn’t see this issue as so important.

[Jeff S]

33 minutes ago, logan2z said:

So I wonder if there is some aspect of their optical design that makes them more prone to flare.  Or is it simply that  buyers of these lenses are particularly inept at using them?

Both,  I would say.  But I’m not an optical specialist, so I can’t speak to specific design elements that affect flare, which are probably multiple given variables such as coatings, secondary internal reflections, number and complexity of glass elements, etc.  I know that Leica made a point, for example, about flare resistance regarding the M Summarits (now discontinued) as part of the marketing.  I recall reading somewhere about internal blackening to reduce secondary reflections, but don’t remember the source.  Even the Summarits, though, will flare under certain conditions.  I owned a MATE that also was more prone to flare at 50mm, as others have also experienced, but I learned to avoid/minimize it. User technique and judgment affects every aspect of photo and print workflow.

Jeff

 

[m410]

Yes, the 50mm f2 Summicron V is prone to flare.

This is not caused by the user as previously expressed but rather this lenses ability to deal with bright concentrations of light with its particular combination of design, glass qualities and coatings.  Of course the user can minimize/maximize the impact of flare in the photograph with composition, using a lens hood, filters, software etc.  Also, you can just include flare as an artistic element.

At first I was startled by the flare in my new 50mm Summicron, especially compared with my other Leica lenses, but I learned to deal with it.  I even, at times, enjoy the challenge of using or eliminating the impacts of these areas of low contrast or flare.

As my version of the 50mm f2 Summicron is my only 50mm, I do not know how it's flare characteristics compares with Leica's other 50mm lenses.

The 50mm f2 Summicron V is a nice lens and has been a good choice for me. I appreciate its weight, small physical size, 39mm filters, focal length and most of all:  the images.

Photo below is Luang Prabang, Laos shooting towards, but not directly at the sun with my M10+50mm f2 Summicron (current version), UV filter and hood retracted.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited July 14, 2020 by m410
yes

[logan2z]

2 hours ago, m410 said:

Photo below is Luang Prabang, Laos shooting towards, but not directly at the sun with my M10+50mm f2 Summicron (current version), UV filter and hood retracted.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Hmm, I wonder how different the result might have been with the hood extended. 

That result is a bit disappointing.  Again, I realize that any optical system has flaws but this is a lens with a fairly hefty price tag and is seemingly more prone to flare than other, less expensive options - some from Leica themselves. 

I'm a big fan of Leica and don't really have a desire to use a non-Leica lens on my M-A or M4, but this Summicron is giving me pause...

[Runkel]

I had a v5 probably from the 1990s that "flared" unpredictably (likely not actually flare but the result of internal reflections),  not commonly,  sometimes veiling and sometimes more.  There was lore that in a certain batch,  Leica had used a too-reflective black paint for metalwork after the last element.  I sent the lens to Leica New Jersey to have the suspect area repainted matte black.  This improved the performance but the unpredictable flare still occurred rarely.  Since I could not trust the lens, I got rid of it.  I have used many Leica lenses, older and modern, and the "flare" issues I had with the v5 were unique.  It was not a "bright light source just outside the frame" sort of thing.

I assume a current production model would not have any issues with the type of paint applied internally, and would probably perform substantially better than the one I had.

 

Of possible interest:

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/signature-flare-with-current-50mm-summicron-m.159746/

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/is-summicron-m-50-prone-to-flare.79529/

Edited July 15, 2020 by Runkel

[logan2z]

8 hours ago, Runkel said:

I had a v5 probably from the 1990s that "flared" unpredictably (likely not actually flare but the result of internal reflections),  not commonly,  sometimes veiling and sometimes more.  There was lore that in a certain batch,  Leica had used a too-reflective black paint for metalwork after the last element.  I sent the lens to Leica New Jersey to have the suspect area repainted matte black.  This improved the performance but the unpredictable flare still occurred rarely.  Since I could not trust the lens, I got rid of it.  I have used many Leica lenses, older and modern, and the "flare" issues I had with the v5 were unique.  It was not a "bright light source just outside the frame" sort of thing.

I assume a current production model would not have any issues with the type of paint applied internally, and would probably perform substantially better than the one I had.

 

Of possible interest:

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/signature-flare-with-current-50mm-summicron-m.159746/

https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/is-summicron-m-50-prone-to-flare.79529/

Thanks for the links.  Disappointing that a tendency to flare seems to be a fairly common complaint about this lens. 

Edited July 16, 2020 by logan2z

[lct]

7 hours ago, logan2z said:

Thanks for the links.  Disappointing that a tendency to flare seems to be a fairly common complaint about this lens. 

If you like the character of the 50/2 v5, you might consider the previous 50/2 v4. It has a bit more veiling flare when strong light sources are inside the frame, but significantly less reflections when same light sources are outside the frame. BTW stock hoods are useless in both cases but making some more shade with a hat or a hand suffices to reduce of fix the reflections. You may also turn your back to the sun as some pinhole and LUF photogs advise to do .

[adan]

Here's my (very recent) experience with a 50 v.5 of recent make (post-2010).

First up  - actual optical flare "through" the lens glass, cement and coatings (and, for completeness, the sensor cover glass). Under fairly extreme lighting. Note how the brightest light leaks or flares into the poster-board and the woman's hair. if I were guessing, this "leakage" comes from the v.4/5's four flat (and thus relatively inexpensive) lens surfaces either side of the diaphragm. But maybe not.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

The pair below shows another kind of flare - internal reflections off the lens's metal housing OR the inside of the camera (digital M10). Interestingly, when I swung the lens slightly more to the right, the street light just outside the frame on the left produced even more flare. Which just goes to show how sneaky some flare can be to analyze. (Built-in lens hood was extended for these shots).

It all has to do with just what "spill" light from just outside the picture area is falling on, in between the back of the lens and the image plane. If it reflects inside the camera, it can't really be blamed on the lens, but if it is reflecting inside the lens tube itself somewhere, then the lens gets the "credit."

 

[m410]

OP, why don't you zip over to San Francisco Leica (suggest with your mask on, your M4 and a SD card in hand) and ask for a 50mm Summicron V demonstration using one of their M digital bodies.  Using the live view screen find and photograph several examples of flare that concern you.  Then to your best, take the same compositions with the 50mm mounted on your M4.  Process the film and compare the flare characteristics with the images saved on the SD card.  Your basic question involves your M4 and film, this could be a method for you to answer your concerns.  Leica has built an awful lot of 50mm f2 Summicrons over the years and if they were a problematic lens, well they won't have built them right?  

Personally, I purchased and still own/use my black M4 from 1972.  It had the 1970's version of the 50mm Summicron.  Flare wasn't a problem and the lens was incredibly sharp on my Kodachrome and Try-X film. The lens is a wonderful focal length lens. 

Good luck with your choice.

 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, m410 said:

OP, why don't you zip over to San Francisco Leica (suggest with your mask on, your M4 and a SD card in hand) and ask for a 50mm Summicron V demonstration using one of their M digital bodies.  Using the live view screen find and photograph several examples of flare that concern you.  Then to your best, take the same compositions with the 50mm mounted on your M4.  Process the film and compare the flare characteristics with the images saved on the SD card.  Your basic question involves your M4 and film, this could be a method for you to answer your concerns.  Leica has built an awful lot of 50mm f2 Summicrons over the years and if they were a problematic lens, well they won't have built them right?  

Personally, I purchased and still own/use my black M4 from 1972.  It had the 1970's version of the 50mm Summicron.  Flare wasn't a problem and the lens was incredibly sharp on my Kodachrome and Try-X film. The lens is a wonderful focal length lens. 

Good luck with your choice.

 

That's a good suggestion.  I'll probably wait until the Covid situation in San Francisco improves a bit (the Leica store is only open by appointment at the moment, and this isn't exactly an emergency  ), but that is a good way to put my mind at ease before buying.