M10R

[wlaidlaw]

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Scott, 

I think most of Leica's imaging sensors are fabbed in Grenoble by STi. Grenoble was one of the Covid hotspots in France, with a large immigrant population living in crowded "Banlieus". 

Wilson

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[wlaidlaw]

I received a marketing shot from Pixii this morning. However the launch editions of their APS-C screen-less camera are all sold out, so I can't consider cancelling my order for an M10R and buying a Pixii instead. 🤣🤣🤣

I am amazed folk are paying €3490 for this camera when you could buy a S/H M240 for less than that and an M9 for about half. 

Wilson

[Robert Blanko]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb wlaidlaw:

I received a marketing shot from Pixii this morning. However the launch editions of their APS-C screen-less camera are all sold out, so I can't consider cancelling my order for an M10R and buying a Pixii instead. 🤣🤣🤣

I am amazed folk are paying €3490 for this camera when you could buy a S/H M240 for less than that and an M9 for about half. 

Wilson

[Robert Blanko]

😁 It‘s also surprising that even though the Pixii merely offers an APS-C sensor, the size is almost indistinguishable from an M10...

[Jeff S]

12 minutes ago, Robert Blanko said:

😁 It‘s also surprising that even though the Pixii merely offers an APS-C sensor, the size is almost indistinguishable from an M10...

The M8 has a cropped sensor and is bigger than an M10.  Costs and priorities.

Jeff

[onasj]

The most interesting aspect of the PIXII in my opinion is that it uses a global e-shutter.  If global shutter can be implemented on modern-resolution, full-frame 35 mm, modern-quality (14 or 16-bit) sensors, it could really move digital photography forward by eliminating the need for mechanical shutters and their size, cost, and other limitations.

Supposedly Sony has been working on a 72-MP global shutter full-frame 35 mm sensor: https://sonyreconsidered.com/sony-might-be-developing-a-72-megapixel-image-sensor-with-global-shutter-c966ad36fa8e

 

Edited July 6, 2020 by onasj

[wlaidlaw]

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Isn't what they call a global shutter more likely to be a very fast rolling shutter but running bi-directional from the centre of the sensor outwards. We have all seen from video cameras, the odd results these rolling shutters can produce. I thought that was why some professional video cameras still use CCD, where implementation of a true global shutter is much easier. 

Wilson

[onasj]

47 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

Isn't what they call a global shutter more likely to be a very fast rolling shutter but running bi-directional from the centre of the sensor outwards. We have all seen from video cameras, the odd results these rolling shutters can produce. I thought that was why some professional video cameras still use CCD, where implementation of a true global shutter is much easier. 

Wilson

My understanding is that a (true) global shutter means all pixels in the sensor are read out simultaneously.  A true global shutter should be mutually exclusive with a rolling shutter of any type. 

2019 Sony announcement of a 20-MP BSI global shutter sensor with 2.74 µm pixel pitch: https://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press/201903/19-023E/

Edited July 6, 2020 by onasj

[dkmoore]

16 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

I received a marketing shot from Pixii this morning. However the launch editions of their APS-C screen-less camera are all sold out, so I can't consider cancelling my order for an M10R and buying a Pixii instead. 🤣🤣🤣

I am amazed folk are paying €3490 for this camera when you could buy a S/H M240 for less than that and an M9 for about half. 

Wilson

Easy to sell out when you make 3 units and the employees/owners get first dibs.   :  )-

I doubt they sell more than 100 copies lifetime. Just does not make sense. Even those curious will hesitate, especially during hard economic times for many, not knowing if the company will survive the next year to support said camera. 

The M10R, similar to your feeling, steam rolls the pixie dust. Count me in as an early M10R adopter. 

Edited July 6, 2020 by dkmoore

[LeicaR10]

Dkmoore,  I agree with your assessment.  I think when the M10-R debuts next week, many M owners might well upgrade to include myself.  r/ Mark

[jamiealquiza]

On 6/26/2020 at 7:51 AM, Anakronox said:

If the M10-R has the same sensor as the Q2, then count me out.  The Q2’s high ISO performance is terrible. I’d rather have 24 megapixels with the M10 and excellent ISO quality to 6400, whereas the Q2 breaks up and looks awful at 1600.  I know that this is subjective, but when I compare these two bodies side by side, I’ll pick the M10 or M10M every time if I know I’ll be working in marginal light.  For the record, I own the M10, M10M, and Q2 so I can compare them and shoot to my tastes. 

A lot of people have been repeating this, and I wonder if it's actually backed with any experiences. While I've seen tests before buying the Q2, I actually find the high ISO performance and shadow recovery pretty incredible, especially compared with the history of other high end cameras I've owned.

 

I feel like most negative remarks are part of an ever growing expectations raising, when in reality, most decent cameras these days are *significantly better* than the users anyway.

[jamiealquiza]

16 hours ago, Jeff S said:

The M8 has a cropped sensor and is bigger than an M10.  Costs and priorities.

Jeff

Also time of invention; the M8 is ancient at this point. Second, cost. The M10 is of course as compact as an aps-c camera that's a fraction of the cost.

[Anakronox]

6 hours ago, jamiealquiza said:

A lot of people have been repeating this, and I wonder if it's actually backed with any experiences. While I've seen tests before buying the Q2, I actually find the high ISO performance and shadow recovery pretty incredible, especially compared with the history of other high end cameras I've owned.

 

I feel like most negative remarks are part of an ever growing expectations raising, when in reality, most decent cameras these days are *significantly better* than the users anyway.

Considering I own a Q2, these ARE in fact my experiences with it.  I cannot enjoy how noisy it is at 1250 ISO and above.  I had slightly better results with my D850, but also did not care for its noise patterns at higher ISO.  
 

I also shoot other “high end” cameras - M10, M10M, and Fuji GFX 50R.  All of these are well within my taste for how they treat noise at ISO 1600+

[dkmoore]

7 hours ago, jamiealquiza said:

A lot of people have been repeating this, and I wonder if it's actually backed with any experiences. While I've seen tests before buying the Q2, I actually find the high ISO performance and shadow recovery pretty incredible, especially compared with the history of other high end cameras I've owned.

 

I feel like most negative remarks are part of an ever growing expectations raising, when in reality, most decent cameras these days are *significantly better* than the users anyway.

This is false anyway. M10R has the same sensor and MP count as M10M. At least that is what I was told and I believe the source of info. 

[wlaidlaw]

No doubt we will hear the real facts from Jono Slack, as I have a feeling he has an M10R in has hands at the moment. He usually releases his very honest reviews on the date of public release of the camera. The only proviso being that he has sometimes not been using the final production firmware but a beta version. This can have an impact on things like noise. I cannot see Leica putting a camera on sale which had poorer performance than its predecessor. 

Wilson

 

 

[tom0511]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Anakronox:

Considering I own a Q2, these ARE in fact my experiences with it.  I cannot enjoy how noisy it is at 1250 ISO and above.  I had slightly better results with my D850, but also did not care for its noise patterns at higher ISO.  
 

I also shoot other “high end” cameras - M10, M10M, and Fuji GFX 50R.  All of these are well within my taste for how they treat noise at ISO 1600+

Do you talk about computer screen 100% or prints at comparable sizes?

 

[Robert Blanko]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Anakronox:

Considering I own a Q2, these ARE in fact my experiences with it.  I cannot enjoy how noisy it is at 1250 ISO and above.  I had slightly better results with my D850, but also did not care for its noise patterns at higher ISO.  
 

I also shoot other “high end” cameras - M10, M10M, and Fuji GFX 50R.  All of these are well within my taste for how they treat noise at ISO 1600+

So far, I never felt that I have an issue at ISO 1250 or slightly higher with my Q2. And I did never have the impression that the high ISO performance of my Q2 would we worse than that of my D850. I did not make pixel peeping comparisons though, but this is nothing that caught my attention so far - and I am usually rather critical in said respect.

[Anakronox]

47 minutes ago, Robert Blanko said:

So far, I never felt that I have an issue at ISO 1250 or slightly higher with my Q2. And I did never have the impression that the high ISO performance of my Q2 would we worse than that of my D850. I did not make pixel peeping comparisons though, but this is nothing that caught my attention so far - and I am usually rather critical in said respect.

Everyone has their own taste.  If you are okay with it and you still take great photos - awesome!  I have a few photos I was happy with despite the noise, but on the whole I didn't like it.  It's possible that since I shoot with the Ms I have their shots to compare the Q2's to, I haven't been pleased. 

I do tend to pixel peep and usually edit on a 4k monitor scaled to Apple's retina standard.  So never at true 100% actual resolution.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Gateway77]

1 hour ago, Anakronox said:

Everyone has their own taste.  If you are okay with it and you still take great photos - awesome!  I have a few photos I was happy with despite the noise, but on the whole I didn't like it.  It's possible that since I shoot with the Ms I have their shots to compare the Q2's to, I haven't been pleased. 

I do tend to pixel peep and usually edit on a 4k monitor scaled to Apple's retina standard.  So never at true 100% actual resolution.

I must admit when I first got the Q2, Like you I was very disappointed with the amount of noise.  It seems to me that the bigger sensor can be both amazing and also problematic.  Noise on the M seems to add something of value to the image, whereas on the Q2 I Find it distracting and unwelcome.  I very nearly chopped it in for this reason.  

This then is a double edged sword.  Personally I've no interest (or money since CV19!) in the M10R.  I realise I have a mammoth amount to learn about using such a simple yet complex tool as the M10P without adding a whole new level of data that frankly I can't make use of.

But I have to admit the image quality with the Q2 sensor can be stunning and so I'm sure the M10R will be amazing - in talented hands.  

[onasj]

Based on Bill Claff's measurements, the high ISO performance of the SL2~Q2 < M10 << M10M: about ISO 2000 vs 2000 vs 4000 vs 9000 to achieve the same image quality metric.  By the same high ISO performance metric, the D850 is ~4000, the Sony a7r4 is about 5000, the Sony a7r3 is about 6000, and the Phase One IQ4 is ~23000 —all consistent with my experiences shooting these cameras.

https://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

I'm cautiously optimistic that the high-ISO performance of the M10-R will be at least as good, if not better, than that of the M10/M10-P, despite the significant increase in resolution (24 vs 41 MP).  Shouldn't be long now!