M10R

[Anakronox]

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On 6/29/2020 at 2:26 AM, Dennis said:

Some high executives from Leica called me just a few moments ago with details of the confirmed launch date and full features. Unfortunately, I can't share all this information with you guys. All I can say, it's that will be an insane game-changer camera only for Vloggers and Instagram Influencers. Can't say more

I was out when I read the rumors of the Q2 sensor.  Now I can say that I am ALL THE WAY IN.

I'm talking sell both kidneys kind of all in.

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[LBJ2]

23 hours ago, budjames said:

These are nice for our conversation here, but none of my clients or friends have ever questioned the dynamic range or resolution of my prints. Love all around.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

I am not interested in just more MPs, I am however hoping CMOSIS/ STMicroelectronics were able to squeeze even more DR out of the "rumored" new 40MP M10-R sensor.

[mujk]

On 6/27/2020 at 4:28 AM, sillbeers15 said:

One can be contended with a GSM900 basic mobile phone and urge the non essentials of a smartphone for basic mobile communication. Unfortunately a GSM900 phone can only function as a desk top dead weight as the GSM network has been redundant for years.

Similarly the digital makers want and have to choose from the current technology sensor suppliers’ parts bin. So while you can remain happy on 24MP while the rest of the world moves on. One cannot even get a M9 CCD sensor replaced today when needed. So it will be as good as a GSM900 phone when the sensor goes. Tomorrow same scenario will take place on the 24MP sensor. Life just needs to go on. Same fate will happen to our gasoline powered cars we’ve grown attached to. I may not like that but I cannot stop the trend.

The dpreview.com site has a fairly extensive list of digital cameras released during the years. Looking at their list of interchangeable lens cameras released during the last 12 months, 18 out of 24 has a sensor with less than 30MP, typically around 25MP. So I would not declare that MP size obsolete quite yet.

The date when a sensor goes out of production does not necesssrily correlate with the number of MPs. It is the demand and manufacturing costs that govern the availability and, at some point if time, also manufacturing technology. FF and APS-C Leicas usually don't use standard sensors. They are manufactured specifically for Leica. I would guess they would be able to source sensors for their older camera models for quite some time still if they could justify the cost.

[mujk]

On 6/29/2020 at 11:08 AM, farnz said:

Ah but Leica fills all M10-P's with special, heavy air, that's brewed in ancient caves far below sea level, to enhance the user experience.

Pete.

It's the all the history of Leica rangefinders packed into the current M that makes it heavy. Take away the history and it becomes light as a feather.

[Martin B]

This is pretty much the M camera I was waiting for since quite some time. I posted in this forum years ago and complained that there is no high resolution sensor based rangefinder M camera available while other manufacturers already were going for > 40 MP FF sensor as standard. I was hammered for this with all kind of reasoning ranging from "impossible to make", "not needed" etc. Same story when other manufacturers introduced > 7 years ago high resolution sensor cameras which always turned out to be more in demand than the similar around 24 MP FF models. 

I am looking forward to the M10-R. The only thing which will make me being reluctant going for it, is its likely introduction price tag. 

[Steve Ash]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb Martin B:

This is pretty much the M camera I was waiting for since quite some time. I posted in this forum years ago and complained that there is no high resolution sensor based rangefinder M camera available while other manufacturers already were going for > 40 MP FF sensor as standard. I was hammered for this with all kind of reasoning ranging from "impossible to make", "not needed" etc. Same story when other manufacturers introduced > 7 years ago high resolution sensor cameras which always turned out to be more in demand than the similar around 24 MP FF models. 

I am looking forward to the M10-R. The only thing which will make me being reluctant going for it, is its likely introduction price tag. 

Well, the issue with the potential price tag was easy to predict. 😉☺️

[T25UFO]

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It would be nice to pair the M10-R with the newly acquired M10-M, but anything left in my photographic fund will most likely be spent on glass, rather than a higher MP camera.  Very happy with the M10-D.

[Good To Be Retired]

Hoping someone here will do an intervention

I've had this idea, ever since the announcement, that the rumored M10R would be just the ticket for me.  My current M240 pretty much covers everything I want, and certainly everything I actually need, in a rangefinder.  The problem for me is I'm into instant gratification.   Which is not actually all that bad an idea given my advanced age.  I may not be able to wait long enough for it to get here.

However .....

Like a fairly large segment of the population on this forum my wife and I have other cameras.  Current stable includes a Nikon D800e, D850, and a D5.  

The Pentax 645z was a lot of fun t use, had some outstanding new lenses and some pretty good legacy lenses.  It's gone because I didn't have a caddy to carry it around for me.  Damn thing was HEAVY.  And BIG too.

The Hasselblad 503 with a CV-16 digital back was probably more fun than anything I've used, in a sort of retro way, but service on the digital part, which was the only part that cost anything to speak of, was non existent and I was concerned about it going Tango Uniform and leaving me with a Hasselblad trotline weight.  And proper batteries were a problem.  So it's gone.

The Fuji GFX 50r also made beautiful files and had some world class lenses.  But for whatever reason I just couldn't bond with Fuji.  So it's gone.

And so the last week or so I've been sniffing around a Hasselblad X1D II and a 65mm lens.  Prior experience leads me to believe that the 65 is the only lens I'll need.  Seems like I may have said that before however.  I've almost talked myself into pulling the trigger.  B & H can get it here in 48 hours.

Not that I need it of course, or that it will make me a better photographer.  I'm way past thinking my work's going to improve   But it sure looks like fun

Kids inheritance be damned.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Good To Be Retired

[LBJ2]

42 minutes ago, Good To Be Retired said:

Hoping someone here will do an intervention

I've had this idea, ever since the announcement, that the rumored M10R would be just the ticket for me.  My current M240 pretty much covers everything I want, and certainly everything I actually need, in a rangefinder.  The problem for me is I'm into instant gratification.   Which is not actually all that bad an idea given my advanced age.  I may not be able to wait long enough for it to get here.

However .....

Like a fairly large segment of the population on this forum my wife and I have other cameras.  Current stable includes a Nikon D800e, D850, and a D5.  

The Pentax 645z was a lot of fun t use, had some outstanding new lenses and some pretty good legacy lenses.  It's gone because I didn't have a caddy to carry it around for me.  Damn thing was HEAVY.  And BIG too.

The Hasselblad 503 with a CV-16 digital back was probably more fun than anything I've used, in a sort of retro way, but service on the digital part, which was the only part that cost anything to speak of, was non existent and I was concerned about it going Tango Uniform and leaving me with a Hasselblad trotline weight.  And proper batteries were a problem.  So it's gone.

The Fuji GFX 50r also made beautiful files and had some world class lenses.  But for whatever reason I just couldn't bond with Fuji.  So it's gone.

And so the last week or so I've been sniffing around a Hasselblad X1D II and a 65mm lens.  Prior experience leads me to believe that the 65 is the only lens I'll need.  Seems like I may have said that before however.  I've almost talked myself into pulling the trigger.  B & H can get it here in 48 hours.

Not that I need it of course, or that it will make me a better photographer.  I'm way past thinking my work's going to improve   But it sure looks like fun

Kids inheritance be damned.

Possibly a few more weeks to the alleged announcement--however perhaps even sooner or even later. Who knows for sure. Some time for you to experiment with the Hasselblad X1D II and the 65mm and with B&H's generous return period you have at least 30 days to test run the Hassey. BTW if you sign up for Adorama's VIP program, you have 60 days. 

OTOH, and I haven't been with the Leica system for long, but from what I can tell so far, Leica make it difficult for many of us to purchase new releases and the old waiting list marekting approach doesn't appeal to me at all. My point being may be more than some time before you can even be so "lucky" to buy the M10-R for 8-9K. Plenty of time to explore alternatives and learn from the few that are able purchase the M10-R and compare with what we all currently use. There will be plenty of reviews when the M10-R announcement is official.

Edited July 1, 2020 by LBJ2

[Eric1]

While I’m generally a fan of more pixels, I don’t really see any reason to upgrade from M10 until Leica makes an M11. These micro-iterations are just filler until a true successor comes out. I mean how many M10 variations can there be? M10-Z next...

[LBJ2]

3 minutes ago, Eric1 said:

While I’m generally a fan of more pixels, I don’t really see any reason to upgrade from M10 until Leica makes an M11. These micro-iterations are just filler until a true successor comes out. I mean how many M10 variations can there be? M10-Z next...

Personally, I like the approach. Something for everybody so-to-speak while maintaining the same familiar form factor and sensor size. I think the M10 form factor is a big success and hoping to get as much as I can get out of it before the design changes to something I may or may not like. To me high MP M and R are somewhat of a technical watershed for Leica M. So for me, very exciting, but I know high tech may not be appealing to others. 24- 40 MP in Leica M land to me is no small achievement. 

With that said, I am very pleased with the IQ from my 24 MP M10. Very pleased, and this is coming from a guy who also shoot the FF MP Monster the Sony A7rIV. So for me its a wait and see on the M10-R sensor capabilities. I do however plan to purchase a second M camera at some point.

[Jeff S]

5 minutes ago, Eric1 said:

While I’m generally a fan of more pixels, I don’t really see any reason to upgrade from M10 until Leica makes an M11. These micro-iterations are just filler until a true successor comes out. I mean how many M10 variations can there be? M10-Z next...

The M10 Monochrom was the first time Leica introduced an entirely new sensor architecture in a current M platform, presumably with the M10-R to follow (same new sensor with color array). This hardly seems a ‘micro-iteration’ to me.  Whether it’s of interest to you or others is of course another matter. 
 

Jeff

[Eric1]

On 6/28/2020 at 9:56 AM, typ3656 said:

Hi bherman01545. I purchased an M10 a couple of months ago and, since, I've been reading a lot of opinions on what an M camera should and should not be used for. I'm new, so I'm not trying to be a smartbum with this question, but can you please elaborate on why M cameras aren't good for landscape? There's a lot of "type-casting" with M cameras, pasting labels on what an M camera should be used for, so I'm just curious. Thanks!

I use the M10 for landscapes and have no problems with images. It’s a myth Leica’s aren’t versatile for any environment. The only difference from a traditional camera is perhaps limited focal length, like your 300mm zooms. The sweet spot for Leica lenses are really 28mm to 75mm and that will definitely limit your landscape choices compared with using longer range lenses. Best. 

[Dennis]

With my Nikon D5 (20.3MP), I had printed up to 24"x36" ... Amazing quality. Maybe not for museum, but amazing enough for clients and passionate photography lover.

A more MP sensor, will not change my mind about change my M10, I'm super happy with it. The ONLY thing would let me think about to get an M10R (selling my M10 and paying the difference), it would be the excellent performance at high ISO like the M10M. The possibility of putting 12,800 ISO w/o bad result, it's a game changer. Shooting only with available light, doesn't matter what, I do envy the M10M performance and I really would love to have the same for my M10.

But maybe I think I have to wait more years for that, because it's possible only w/o the filter array ... Don't you think so?

[onasj]

3 hours ago, Dennis said:

With my Nikon D5 (20.3MP), I had printed up to 24"x36" ... Amazing quality. Maybe not for museum, but amazing enough for clients and passionate photography lover.

A more MP sensor, will not change my mind about change my M10, I'm super happy with it. The ONLY thing would let me think about to get an M10R (selling my M10 and paying the difference), it would be the excellent performance at high ISO like the M10M. The possibility of putting 12,800 ISO w/o bad result, it's a game changer. Shooting only with available light, doesn't matter what, I do envy the M10M performance and I really would love to have the same for my M10.

But maybe I think I have to wait more years for that, because it's possible only w/o the filter array ... Don't you think so?

Dennis, your question is also near the top of my list about the M10-R—that's why I was speculating in the M10-R sensor thread that *IF* the M10-R sensor is more-or-less a 24x18 mm crop of the Leica S3's sensor, then its ISO12800 performance (which I consider to be not great in the M10/M10-P) should be good.  Here's an image and a crop that was posted online of an S3 image taken at ISO 12800 (https://photopxl.com/leica-s3-first-look/).  Looking at the crop, I think the S3's performance at ISO12800 exceeds that of my M10-P at ISO12800 by a fair margin... that gives me some preliminary hope. The ISO immunity of the M10-M is incredibly useful and powerful, to me at least. Of course the M10-R won't match the M10-M's high-ISO performance (ISO 50,000 = ok!), but if it can come within 1-2 stops of it I will be thrilled.

 

 

[wlaidlaw]

For M10P owners, I would guess to upgrade or not is a marginal decision. For me where my last digital M purchase was an M240, some 7 years ago, it is easy, especially for someone like me who likes twilight photography. 

Wilson

[sillbeers15]

On 6/30/2020 at 8:41 PM, mujk said:

The dpreview.com site has a fairly extensive list of digital cameras released during the years. Looking at their list of interchangeable lens cameras released during the last 12 months, 18 out of 24 has a sensor with less than 30MP, typically around 25MP. So I would not declare that MP size obsolete quite yet.

The date when a sensor goes out of production does not necesssrily correlate with the number of MPs. It is the demand and manufacturing costs that govern the availability and, at some point if time, also manufacturing technology. FF and APS-C Leicas usually don't use standard sensors. They are manufactured specifically for Leica. I would guess they would be able to source sensors for their older camera models for quite some time still if they could justify the cost.

Let’s not forget more MP sells better for new cameras (not that I always agree) to entice potential buyers to dig out the cash from their wallets.

[strohscw]

As a M10M user I would prefer for the M10R the M10M sensor with Bayer filter for its great dynamic range. The Q2 sensor would be also an option if delivered with the M10 specific micro lenses on the sensor.

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Hallo,

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[Martin B]

15 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

For M10P owners, I would guess to upgrade or not is a marginal decision. For me where my last digital M purchase was an M240, some 7 years ago, it is easy, especially for someone like me who likes twilight photography. 

Wilson

The contribution to this topic I can make is that I saw a big difference in my digital photos when moving from my Canon 5D MkII with 22 MP FF sensor to the Sony A7R with 36 MP. It is definitely a visible difference even on a non 5K resolution screen. There are areas in photography where this difference matters (for example in landscape and portrait photography) but less so for example in street photography where actually a lower resolution might be beneficial. I am rarely doing the latter - and if so, I always grab one of my film Leica cameras anyway. 

Also correct as pointed out earlier that a higher resolution sensor comes with the culprit of lower max. ISO. I rarely shoot above ISO 3200, so no issue for my style in photography, but it might be an issue for dim light photographers. Another big difference with a newer sensor is the higher DR - this plays a role with high contrast areas for example at sunsets or sunrises. With my A7R, I don't need graduated ND filters anymore which were a must to use with an older sensor like on my 5D MkII since now I can nicely push shadows 2-3 stops without overdoing it. 

Another reason is a pure technical hobbyist one for me to consider the M10R: Leica lenses are made to offer such good resolution, so why not using them to their best on a higher resolution sensor? I am already using most of my M lenses on my A7R since years with adapter, and they shine at 36 MP FF. Even vintage M/LTM lenses work great on high res sensors. Rule of thumb: high res sensors work well with lower res/vintage lenses also whereas 35 mm film works better with high res lenses to maximize resolution benefit if needed. 

From experience how it worked > 6 years ago with Sony after they released the high MP FF sensor, I predict that the M10R will be successful for Leica and more in demand than the M10M (which is also a high res sensor but limited to B&W only).  

[yggdra.omega]

Has there been many complaints of how an M10M's processor handles those large files? I know most are assuming there will be no inclusion of the Maestro III in the M10-R, so I'm curious how the M10M's performance (regarding filling the frame buffer) compares to the M10/P and SL2. 

 

I feel like this comparison could be useful in speculation of how the M10-R may perform, unless I'm mistaken.