M6 horizontal white light leaks

[iimikeii]

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Hello all,

First time here so thanks in advance for you help.

I've scoured the internet trying to get to the bottom of this pesky problem but have yet to find a proper solution. In 5-10 exposures per roll, I get these white horizontal bands across the frame, always in the same place at the top, and sometimes at the bottom. It happens at different shutter speeds, apertures, with different lenses and with different developing labs. The light leaks occur on the negatives and on the scans. It extends between exposures on the negatives and isn't restricted to each rectangle. Weirdly, the majority happen indoors with 1/30 @ f/2.5 but they also happen in bright light outdoors.

I had Youxin Ye do a CLA one year ago and he replaced "the light seal from the shell to the back door area" and "added a light strip at the back door edge". Unfortunately the light leak issue wasn't solved.

I've shined a flashlight through the curtain in a pitch black room and no light comes through so I wonder how it could be the curtain. Also, as far as I'm aware, it seems like the issue with holes in the curtain manifests as white spots on the negatives, not horizontal white bands. 

I'm including a couple pictures hoping someone could help me diagnose this particular problem. Thanks in advance for you help!

 

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[jankap]

"It extends between exposures on the negatives". I suspect the backdoor. Can you try the following: no film, no lens, exposure on B, keep the back of the camera in direction of a spotlight, expose and keep the shutter open. Then look into the bayonet opening.

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[iimikeii]

Thanks for the quick response!

I just went into a dark room, stuck my eye into the bayonet opening and shone a flashlight at the back of the camera with the exposure held down on B. All I saw was pitch black. I was hoping this would do the trick and reveal an inadequately sealed back door but no dice...

[jankap]

You are welcome.

It should be the back door, according to your remark " It extends between exposures on the negatives". In the middle part of the film there is light leaking, at the bottom of the camera less than on the top.

My next test would be: load a film, make 3 exposures as normal. Then hold the back of the camera to the sun and take 3 more, after that, tape the back door with black tape and use the film to its end.

You can also hold the camera upside down for 3 exposures, as a test. The sky gives more light than the floor/ground.

The bottom lid of the camera seems to be ok, as the leaking is less or not existent at the bottom (top of the picture). I assume you hold your camera without halvecase, so naked.

[jankap]

Forgot this, I think, the problem areas are the vertikal openings (the ones left and/or right) of the back door. It seems, that the problem happens during the transport of the film.

[iimikeii]

Thanks again! I'll try this and cross my fingers.

[250swb]

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What type of film are you using? If it is negative film and the leak is white then the light isn't coming through from the film base side which would make the leak look orange. This may logically rule out the door as a source of the leak. Look inside the camera body and check for any missing screws around the top plate.

[giannis]

On 6/11/2020 at 9:54 AM, 250swb said:

f it is negative film and the leak is white then the light isn't coming through from the film base side which would make the leak look orange.

This. It looks to me the lightleak comes from the front of the film, so probably the top of the camera. I haven't gotten such a leak on a Leica, but in similar leaks with other rangefinders and compacts, the usual suspects were:

1. missing/ill fitted screws

2. ill-fitted or deteriorated light baffles under the rf/viewfinder windows, under the top plate

3. ill fitted or deteriorated light baffles in around the take up spool mechanism where it meets the top part of the camera, allowing tiny pinholes of light to leak through the the take up spool.

I think it's quite hard to spot a lightleak like that. It's much, much smaller in real life than it appears on the pictures. And only visible at specific angles. Try shining a bight light (phone flashlight) into the view finder, with the back and bottom plate open. Move it around the viewfinder, while you also move the camera around, and looking at it (through the back/bottom plate I mean) at different angles. In a very dark room of course. You might spot it this way.

[Ko.Fe.]

I have similar, periodical leaks as on #2, #3 on M4-2. Last remaining Leica trained technician in GTA, if not Canada (back in 2017) who has it repaired for another reason and after it those leaks were more often, took it for service and told me if those leaks will be more often, I have to replace curtains.  

[iimikeii]

On 6/11/2020 at 3:54 AM, 250swb said:

What type of film are you using? If it is negative film and the leak is white then the light isn't coming through from the film base side which would make the leak look orange. This may logically rule out the door as a source of the leak. Look inside the camera body and check for any missing screws around the top plate.

I'm using negative film. I'm midway through a roll now with the back door taped so once it's developed and there's still light leaks, I'll look for missing screws. Thanks!

[iimikeii]

1 hour ago, giannis said:

This. It looks to me the lightleak comes from the front of the film, so probably the top of the camera. I haven't gotten such a leak on a Leica, but in similar leaks with other rangefinders and compacts, the usual suspects were:

1. missing/ill fitted screws

2. ill-fitted or deteriorated light baffles under the rf/viewfinder windows, under the top plate

3. ill fitted or deteriorated light baffles in around the take up spool mechanism where it meets the top part of the camera, allowing tiny pinholes of light to leak through the the take up spool.

I think it's quite hard to spot a lightleak like that. It's much, much smaller in real life than it appears on the pictures. And only visible at specific angles. Try shining a bight light (phone flashlight) into the view finder, with the back and bottom plate open. Move it around the viewfinder, while you also move the camera around, and looking at it (through the back/bottom plate I mean) at different angles. In a very dark room of course. You might spot it this way.

Good idea - shining a light through the viewfinder! I'll try this out. I guess in the event it needs something other than a simple screw tightened and I need to take the camera to get repaired somewhere, does anyone have any suggestions? The camera got a CLA by Youxin Ye in April but he wasn't able to fix the light leaks. I emailed Sherry Krauter to ask for an estimate for what diagnosing/fixing the light leaks would be and she tried to sell me on the MP upgrade (brightening the viewfinder, reducing glare)  for $350. When I responded saying I was mainly interested in diagnosing the light leak problem and didn't need the upgrade, especially since Youxin had done a CLA one year ago, she replied,

"He uses 1 grease and is not factory trained. Either I do it right or not at all."

Needless to say, I'd like to find another qualified technician. Please let me know if anyone has any positive experiences and thanks again! 

 

[oldwino]

That sounds like Sherry! She does do good work though. 
Contact DAG. He’s excellent. 

[250swb]

15 hours ago, iimikeii said:

 I emailed Sherry Krauter to ask for an estimate for what diagnosing/fixing the light leaks would be and she tried to sell me on the MP upgrade (brightening the viewfinder, reducing glare)  for $350. When I responded saying I was mainly interested in diagnosing the light leak problem and didn't need the upgrade, especially since Youxin had done a CLA one year ago, she replied,

Diagnosing light leaks for a repairer isn't as straight forward as you might think, and it certainly shouldn't be a case of adding bogus strips of foam where they shouldn't be. A good Leica technician will stick to the book and by the time they've got inside the camera and gone through all the baffles and seals you may find that doing the MP upgrade at the same time is the cheaper part of the job. Finding a leak isn't a case of thinking you've discovered a leak and calling the job done, on an old camera there may be more than one leak or components showing wear that are about to leak unless repaired. As I recall removing the rangefinder mechanism is necessary to get at some of the baffles, so if' she's taking it out anyway, then having to re-calibrate it as Leica themselves would do your own imagination could suggest why she'd think it a good time to take advantage of the MP finder at the same time, given by that point you've paid for the labour anyway.  

[iimikeii]

7 hours ago, 250swb said:

Diagnosing light leaks for a repairer isn't as straight forward as you might think, and it certainly shouldn't be a case of adding bogus strips of foam where they shouldn't be. A good Leica technician will stick to the book and by the time they've got inside the camera and gone through all the baffles and seals you may find that doing the MP upgrade at the same time is the cheaper part of the job. Finding a leak isn't a case of thinking you've discovered a leak and calling the job done, on an old camera there may be more than one leak or components showing wear that are about to leak unless repaired. As I recall removing the rangefinder mechanism is necessary to get at some of the baffles, so if' she's taking it out anyway, then having to re-calibrate it as Leica themselves would do your own imagination could suggest why she'd think it a good time to take advantage of the MP finder at the same time, given by that point you've paid for the labour anyway.  

Fair enough, makes sense. I understand diagnosing a light leak isn't simple - I guess I just hoped for a kinder explanation. For what it's worth, I emailed DAG and he was very helpful and said,

"you have an early Leica M6 camera. Leica redesigned the main shutter light seals because of the exact light leaks you're getting, the new light shields remove this light leak."

I'm grateful DAG could diagnose this problem so easily and kindly explain exactly what needs to be done. Thanks everyone for your help!

 

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[250swb]

That's great news, but if it's a known issue with the early M6 it makes you wonder why the other two haven't come across it and fobbed you off with excuses. Anyway you can rule out your door now.

[giannis]

2 hours ago, iimikeii said:

"you have an early Leica M6 camera. Leica redesigned the main shutter light seals because of the exact light leaks you're getting, the new light shields remove this light leak."

 

Nice, experience can save lots of time in troubleshooting.

In general a lightleak is a "simple" fix, but finding where it comes from is not simple. There's no way to "see" where it comes from. The standard procedure (apart from very obvious leaks), is to strip all the lightseals and baffles, and replace them,  while also checking that every component is up to spec (very hard to do with naked eye, and time consuming with a caliber). And then, once you did the work, run some film through it to make sure the fix actually worked, cause there's no other way to tell.

The fact that DAG has a prime suspect for the leak will probably save you a lot of workhours disassembling the top plate and vf/rf mechanisms and replacing all the baffles.

If you decide to get it fixed, let us know how the fix works and if the diagnosis was correct.

Edited June 13, 2020 by giannis
typos

[iimikeii]

Realizing I forgot to check in after the repair and say DAG was right! New light shields were installed and the problem is gone. Thanks everyone!

[JimX]

Hey! 

I’m having similar issues with my M6 right now. Would you mind sharing how much a the new light shield replacement costed? Thanks!