Arrival and Features of the CL2

[jaapv]

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4 hours ago, robgo2 said:

So, is it OK with you for the CL2 to have IBIS, as long as you can disable it? 🙃

All IBIS systems can be disabled - have to, for situations when they are counter-productive, like tripod use.
It might be handy, for the 55-135 at the long end, but it would be of little influence on my buying decision.
What I would like to have, though, is 8k capability, or at least 4k, to enable easy focus stacking through post-focus. Others might appreciate long 30 fps bursts with pre-release.

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[AdHox]

First up, I enjoy using my CL as it is, and don't feel great pressure to upgrade to CL2.

I don't want a larger camera. If I need a larger sensor I still have fully featured beasts that give me high MPx, "FF" images and all the complexity that comes with hundreds of features. So I'm not looking for an SLx.

More MPx? Have someone not from Marketing tell me why I need more.

I grew up using film, so complaints about images being unusable above a certain ISO just leave me shaking my head. 

I've enjoyed the benefits of IBIS in other systems for many years, but I've discovered with the CL that it is still possible to take photos without IS. 

My other systems give me way more control options, and with that an endless array of features buried in the fifth submenu. But I'm not sure which, if any, of those features I've missed when using the CL. Hmmm, maybe decoupling AF from shutter release could be improved. (As I understand it, I can set up the Fn button for BBF, but that seems clunky and not where I want my thumb while shooting.)

I like the access that the Fn and top right buttons give me to my most used adjustments, but I wouldn't object to an extra function becoming available for the Fn button - a whole screen touch control panel, like I have in various guises on all of my other systems. 

I have three CL batteries, and for my style of shooting I've never needed more than two in a day, so a CL2 with a bigger battery would be a retrograde step for me - when I travel with a back up camera, I prefer it to use the same battery.

Fixing the wandering focus point could be done in the CL's firmware, so that doesn't warrant a new camera.

What would make me buy the new CL2 next year? Don't ask me now. Ask me next year how I rationalised the purchase.

 

Edited May 15, 2020 by AdHox

[dfdann]

I don’t want a CM any bigger or any heavier. Just fix the Damn wandering focus point.

Cheers,Dan

[robgo2]

2 hours ago, ramarren said:

It's fine with me whatever they do, I'm not in charge of what Leica decides to build into its cameras. I don't have to buy it, and likely wouldn't if they don't put a port into it for a wired release. That's the only thing I find I need and want that isn't in the current CL. If they did put IBIS into it, AND it remained the same size and weight, AND the performance of the sensor wasn't degraded from what I already have, AND they put the wired port I want into it, AND they didn't muck up the user interface with a bunch of (to me) unnecessary buttons and commands, I'd buy one. 

As you can tell, I'm pretty happy with the camera exactly as it is and see very little need to "upgrade" it. I get so tired of people telling me "well, to be competitive with other cameras, they HAVE TO add this and that and this and that and this and ... " ad nauseam. What the heck is wrong with building a good, solid, simple product that works perfectly and leaving it alone, selling as many of them as there are people who appreciate good quality cameras? I simply don't understand the absurd need for a half a dozen new features every other year. I buy a camera to make photographs, not to play with new camera features and keep up with all the other cameras. Once a camera does that, I stop being interested in buying another. 

Are all those pictures of cats really in need of IBIS and a 48Mpixel sensor? Sheesh. If Leica chose to make the CL2 into a magic wurlitzer of goofy new features, I'd laugh, keep my CL, and just keep using it until it stopped working and could no longer be repaired. Then I'd buy the next camera that does what I want. 

G

I'm very happy with my CL as well.  I use it with two TL lenses and two M lenses covering 23 to 75mm focal lengths. I have a 180mm lens that I have yet to mount on the camera. It's not perfect, but then what camera is?  A source whom I consider highly reliable has told me to expect the CL2 to have higher resolution.  He did not know about IBIS.  As long as dynamic range and high ISO noise are not negatively impacted, I will not complain about more megapixels.

[nicci78]

23 hours ago, jaapv said:

Lenses? A good coverage of zooms and a few specials - and a galaxy of M and R lenses etc. No shortage at all. (except a compact long telezoom)

Really it is the main drawback. Lack of interesting native APS-C lens.

No equivalent to fast 85mm ? 
No fast equivalent to 21mm ? 
No fisheye ? 
No compact and fast tele zoom ? 
No fast trans standard zoom ?

These are the bare minimum for any system. Leica meets only fast 50mm, compact 28 and 35mm and slow trio of zooms. That is subpar. 
 

I really love the CL. But I am not sure to stay on the Leica boat with so few lens selection. Lenses are the core of any system. They are clearly missing in TL/CL one. 
 

It is quite crazy to be limited in such way. And have to rely on M & R lenses to fill the blank. 
 

You do not have such problem with Fuji X or m4/3. 

[jaapv]

Fast 85 equ, Cannot replace my Summilux 50 asph

Fast 21 equ. I doubt that there is much demand there. The Summilux21 M is a marginal lens in the M system.

Fisheye ? Now that is interesting. I haven't seen much attention paid to fisheyes since the 1990ies - they appear to have gone out of fashion.

Compact stabilized telezoom. Not much need for fast if IOS. But yes, that should be on offer.

Fast standard zoom. That is doubtful, from lens type: yes, from lens size: no - See the Digilux2 zoom and the SL  monsters.

And yes, compatibility and usability of M and R lenses is an essential part of the camera concept. Thus the active adapters. This is not a closed system like MFT or Fuji X, but positioned in the centre of the Leica universe.

[ruskkyle]

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I agree with @nicci78 though, in that the native APSC lens line-up is disappointingly lacking. It’s all well and good saying “then look at the SL / M primes” but the fact is they are hugely more expensive to own.

Personally I cannot afford to do that (and the same will probably be true when a new CL is available). I’m all-in on this system.

Likewise the Pana/Sigma full-frame offerings are not appealing due to their size. I moved to the CL from full-frame land for this very reason.

[wda]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

Really it is the main drawback. Lack of interesting native APS-C lens.

No equivalent to fast 85mm ? 
No fast equivalent to 21mm ? 
No fisheye ? 
No compact and fast tele zoom ? 
No fast trans standard zoom ?

These are the bare minimum for any system. Leica meets only fast 50mm, compact 28 and 35mm and slow trio of zooms. That is subpar. 
 

I really love the CL. But I am not sure to stay on the Leica boat with so few lens selection. Lenses are the core of any system. They are clearly missing in TL/CL one. 
 

It is quite crazy to be limited in such way. And have to rely on M & R lenses to fill the blank. 
 

You do not have such problem with Fuji X or m4/3. 

I have a suggestion. Spend a day or so with your CL and one prime lens  Take serious pictures and note when you miss another specific focal length. A day or so later, repeat the exercise with another prime lens and note your findings. Repeat until you run out of prime lenses. Finally repeat the exercise with your zoom lenses. Analyse your results and highlight the missing focal lengths ideally you wish you had for regular use. Be honest with yourself. Share your findings with us.

[Le Chef]

22 minutes ago, wda said:

I have a suggestion. Spend a day or so with your CL and one prime lens  Take serious pictures and note when you miss another specific focal length. A day or so later, repeat the exercise with another prime lens and note your findings. Repeat until you run out of prime lenses. Finally repeat the exercise with your zoom lenses. Analyse your results and highlight the missing focal lengths ideally you wish you had for regular use. Be honest with yourself. Share your findings with us.

I do this exercise regularly. I have: 11-23, 23, 18-56. I only take one lenses to at a time. It seems most of my shots are in the 14-20 range. 23 obviously you move to get the view you want. What do I miss? Macro. Why do I keep thinking about the Q/Q-P/Q2...?

[Marac]

I have just put my CL stuff up for sale on the eBay simply because the S1R gives me everything I need right now and I have been using the Sigma 45 as my standard lens but after my CL stuff sells I will buy an M adapter and use M lenses with the S1R.

The CL is a fantastic camera and I have had mine over 2 years, that's a new world record for me. It's a nice tight system that worked for me for a very long time and I sell it with a sadness in my heart too but I do not wish to have many cameras around it confuses me hahaha.

I personally think that Leica have a decent lens set up and now with Sigma onboard it will only get a lot better

[lct]

What about the L-mount alliance in all that? Little point to sell (or try to sell...) good enough AF lenses at Leica prices if Sigma or Panasonic can do the same for a fraction of the cost. 

[ramarren]

47 minutes ago, Marac said:

I have just put my CL stuff up for sale on the eBay simply because the S1R gives me everything I need right now and I have been using the Sigma 45 as my standard lens but after my CL stuff sells I will buy an M adapter and use M lenses with the S1R.

The CL is a fantastic camera and I have had mine over 2 years, that's a new world record for me. It's a nice tight system that worked for me for a very long time and I sell it with a sadness in my heart too but I do not wish to have many cameras around it confuses me hahaha.

I personally think that Leica have a decent lens set up and now with Sigma onboard it will only get a lot better

2 years is your world record for ownership of a camera? Wow. Just glancing in my closet, most of the cameras in there have been there at least three to seven years. A couple I've had for thirty years. The CL is still a newcomer, bought it in early Summer 2018. Just on a rough guess, I think I have 40-50 cameras of all types floating around here, an accretion of the ages. I still use nearly all of them... even if only occasionally. 

Very different perspectives, obviously. 

G

[Le Chef]

What is missing is an orchestrated L-mount Alliance roadmap for current and future lenses. I know they may not want to show their hand, but giving the buyer confidence that there's a plan for the future is critical. It might encourage some prospective buyers to take the plunge and encourage others to stay and not to abandon their investment.

[nicci78]

2 hours ago, wda said:

I have a suggestion. Spend a day or so with your CL and one prime lens  Take serious pictures and note when you miss another specific focal length. A day or so later, repeat the exercise with another prime lens and note your findings. Repeat until you run out of prime lenses. Finally repeat the exercise with your zoom lenses. Analyse your results and highlight the missing focal lengths ideally you wish you had for regular use. Be honest with yourself. Share your findings with us.

I am using it almost exclusively with Summilux-TL 35.
So I am pretty sure about what’s missing : a fast 90mm equivalent. That’s all. I do not really like 75mm equivalent. Just like with M cameras. I always prefer 90 to 75mm. 
But such lens do not exist in L mount...

And TL macro 60 does not do the job. Too slow for my liking. 

Edited May 15, 2020 by nicci78

[LocalHero1953]

51 minutes ago, ramarren said:

2 years is your world record for ownership of a camera? Wow. Just glancing in my closet, most of the cameras in there have been there at least three to seven years. A couple I've had for thirty years. The CL is still a newcomer, bought it in early Summer 2018. Just on a rough guess, I think I have 40-50 cameras of all types floating around here, an accretion of the ages. I still use nearly all of them... even if only occasionally. 

Very different perspectives, obviously. 

G

40-50😲? I've just counted the number of cameras I've ever bought: I can't get beyond 14 since 1981 - for 20 years before that I had my father's hand-me-downs (5).
I still have just four of them: CL, SL, Sigma fp and a Gandolfi (my avatar).
It's a pity for the camera industry that you're now so happy with the CL! 😉

Edited May 15, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[wda]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

I am using it almost exclusively with Summilux-TL 35.
So I am pretty sure about what’s missing : a fast 90mm equivalent. That’s all. I do not really like 75mm equivalent. Just like with M cameras. I always prefer 90 to 75mm. 
But such lens do not exist in L mount...

And TL macro 60 does not do the job. Too slow for my liking. 

I have no facts, just conjecture.  But I fear the market for a fast TL 90 mm lens must be very small. Your best bet is to consider the M lens route, provided cost is not a deterrent.

[wda]

3 hours ago, Marac said:

I have just put my CL stuff up for sale on the eBay simply because the S1R gives me everything I need right now and I have been using the Sigma 45 as my standard lens but after my CL stuff sells I will buy an M adapter and use M lenses with the S1R.

The CL is a fantastic camera and I have had mine over 2 years, that's a new world record for me. It's a nice tight system that worked for me for a very long time and I sell it with a sadness in my heart too but I do not wish to have many cameras around it confuses me hahaha.

I personally think that Leica have a decent lens set up and now with Sigma onboard it will only get a lot better

I am saddened to read about your decision, Marac.  However you are consistent with your track record on camera ownership. You cannot be accused of not supporting the global photographic industry.

[ramarren]

8 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

40-50😲? I've just counted the number of cameras I've ever bought: I can't get beyond 14 since 1981 - for 20 years before that I had my father's hand-me-downs (5).
I still have just four of them: CL, SL, Sigma fp and a Gandolfi (my avatar).
It's a pity for the camera industry that you're now so happy with the CL! 😉

Note that I've never suggested that this was sensible... 🙂 

I tend to accrete things. I don't intentionally buy much, but stuff "comes my way" through gifts, friends, etc. For instance, someone who runs a small museum in Palo Alto called me up and said, "I have some cameras that were donated and no place to put them. Would you like to see if any of them work and are worth giving to someone to use?" I didn't think he meant that *I* should take them home, but when I left after poking through what he had received, there were six boxes of working cameras in the trunk of my car. I've given most of them away, but that is 12 more working cameras (that I've used...) for no money spent. A couple of them are pretty nice. 

G

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Hallo,

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[ramarren]

9 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I am using it almost exclusively with Summilux-TL 35.
So I am pretty sure about what’s missing : a fast 90mm equivalent. That’s all. I do not really like 75mm equivalent. Just like with M cameras. I always prefer 90 to 75mm. 
But such lens do not exist in L mount...

And TL macro 60 does not do the job. Too slow for my liking. 

Adapt a Noct-Nikkor 58mm f/1.2. 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by ramarren

[nicci78]

11 hours ago, wda said:

I have no facts, just conjecture.  But I fear the market for a fast TL 90 mm lens must be very small. Your best bet is to consider the M lens route, provided cost is not a deterrent.

There is no Summilux-M 60 (equivalent to 90mm) Only 50 (75 which is too short) or 75 (112.5 which is too long) 

Macro-Elmarit-R 60 does exist. But same f/2.8 only as TL 60. 
 

Another lens missing. A fast 70-200 equivalent. An APO-Vario-Elmarit-TL 45-135 f/2.8 or 50-200 f/2.8-4.0 OIS would be awesome. 
Sadly I give up hope on Leica commitment with APS-C. 
 

Last lens I would like to own : a Summilux-TL 12mm (18) or 14mm (21) f/1.4 once again no equivalent in R or M world. 
 

When you look at Leica portfolio right now. Leica is really backing up only 3 product lines : Q, M and SL ones. All three are 24x36. 

S line did not see any new lens for ages. Same for CL/TL. X line was dropped. Panasonic compact rebranding is minimum work : D-Lux 7 and V-Lux 5 are barely better than the one they replaced. 

I think that Leica has already shift its attention to full frame only, instead of 3:2 aspect ratio in every size possible. 
 

Edited May 16, 2020 by nicci78