Arrival and Features of the CL2

[scott kirkpatrick]

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There's a slow-moving thread titled "Demise of the CL."  I think something more positive is needed. 

Despite rumors that the CL is no longer manufactured, there are an ever-increasing set of lenses for which an APS-C host gives a nice 1.5X boost in focal length.  And Leica has a population of developers who have pushed both the S3 and the SL2 out the door just before the pandemic sent them all home for a well-deserved break  What do you suppose they are working on now?  I would not be surprised if it's a CL2 for the coming Christmas season.  And we'll all be so relieved if there IS a Christmas that it will be a great moment to bring a solid new product into the market that we can celebrate with.

What will be the new features?  Well, IBIS, for certain, since the SL2 makes that a solid half of its upgrade.  And a continued cleanup of the CL's UI.  The present camera is a button or two short of being able to do all the things you want while held up to the eye.  So a version with the split front button and the non-mind-bending function assignment system used in the SL2 (long press to choose a function, short press to make it happen)   and maybe, finally, a joystick would be great.  This might require settling a backroom battle between product managers concerned about making the CL too pro-ish in its handling. thus  blurring the marketing objectives and customer sets of the CL and SL.  But Leica should be wesentlich enough to deal with that, don't you think? 

More pixels?  I don't know.  The CL's pixels are already a little bit smaller than those in the SL2, and yet the quality is just as good as the SL's.  But if someday in the future there is to be an SL3 with 75 to 100 MPx, what better place to test them out?  That would mean hitting, say, 36MPx with the CL2's imaging chip.  But I would want a CL2 in my Christmas stocking even if it had only 24 or 28 MPx with IBIS.

BTLE (BlueToothLowEnergy) -- of course.  Just like the Q2 and SL2.  When Fotos finally gets it working (around 2024, perhaps). with connectivity to Instagram, Facebook and WhatsApp, not just Adobe's Cloud services, then we can all rejoin the world and stop complaining about Leica's efforts to get a little extra money for it.

Edited May 11, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[wda]

Scott, your interesting speculation adds extra controls leading to a cluttered camera I would not rush to buy. The present camera needs little refinement apart from an upgraded sensor and processor. Even that is not a compelling need for me. More buttons? I think not.

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[jaapv]

Maybe it would be a good idea to move some functions out of the menu and onto a touch screen, TL style, instead of additional physical buttons.

[scott kirkpatrick]

10 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Maybe it would be a good idea to move some functions out of the menu and onto a touch screen, TL style, instead of additional physical buttons.

I agree that thinking through the UI will lead to some improvements.  When I was using my CL more heavily, I recall the things i couldn't do involved trying to see something by focus magnification, and moving the point of focus around, for which the four-way button was not as good as a joystick, and some of its sides have been given over to magnification, as there was no button free to turn that on.  The SL solved that by splitting the front button into two buttons.    And the CL, to me, seems like a camera to be used held up to your face.  But I wouldn't mind seeing a better quick menu like the SL's.   UIs evolve, and this should benefit the CL2.

[bags27]

I agree completely with Scott's basic premise. The "death of CL" theory seems to me absurd. Take away the CL/TL2 and Leica's pro/serious amateur entry point becomes a $5k fixed 28 mm lens camera. Although the Q2 sells like hot cakes, Leica has already developed the lenses and market for the APS-C as the entry point. I do think we've seen the last of the TL line, even though it has fantastic style and a great UI.

Sony is rumored to have developed and ready to use a 32 mps  APS-C. I have read somewhere (but unable/too lazy to hunt it down) that Sony has put IBIS into a 1/2 sensor camera. Given that Leica is joining the "more is better" crowd (even with M sensors), I'm betting on a slightly denser sensor. IBIS, and a slightly bigger EVF-- if the heat could be managed without a bigger body or battery. 

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

I think Leica has to keep the sensor size moving up, even if this is just to look state of the art.  32 MPx would be fine with me.  And I don't think they would fall off the cliff with dynamic range to get there.  IBIS with smaller sensors is not a problem, it is where it all started (Olympus) and where it is still done best. 

Edited May 11, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[Le Chef]

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I certainly would be interested in a CL2.

IBIS? Check

Weatherproofing? Check

Higher resolution EVF? Check

LCD UI from the Q2? Check

Bigger top panel LCD? Check

Locked down focal point? YES! YES! YES!

More pixels? Maybe

[jaapv]

14 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

Locked down focal point? YES! YES! YES!

YES!

[Sjz]

21 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

I certainly would be interested in a CL2.

IBIS? Check

Weatherproofing? Check

Higher resolution EVF? Check

LCD UI from the Q2? Check

Bigger top panel LCD? Check

Locked down focal point? YES! YES! YES!

More pixels? Maybe

Nailed it 👍

[FrozenInTime]

It would also be a good time to launch a couple more lenses ; a fast wide and a compact standard  ?

[Jeff S]

53 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I think Leica has to keep the sensor size moving up, even if this is just to look state of the art.  32 MPx would be fine with me.  And I don't think they would fall off the cliff with dynamic range to get there.  IBIS with smaller sensors is not a problem, it is where it all started (Olympus) and where it is still done best. 

Pedantic interruption, but to me, sensor size = physical sensor size (e.g., APS-C vs larger format), while higher MP means higher MP (increased resolution).  This seems more relevant now that there appears to be a simultaneous trend toward higher MPs as well as larger, yet more affordable, sensor cameras (Fuji, etc). My brain rebels when sensor size is used to mean both... especially in the same paragraph. 😳 Am I the only one with this affliction?

Jeff

[Clactonian]

I hope my CL remains useable for years as it answers all my needs, but then I mostly use it with M lenses and zone focussing.

[scott kirkpatrick]

19 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Pedantic interruption, but to me, sensor size = physical sensor size (e.g., APS-C vs larger format), while higher MP means higher MP (increased resolution).  This seems more relevant now that there appears to be a simultaneous trend toward higher MPs as well as larger, yet more affordable, sensor cameras (Fuji, etc). My brain rebels when sensor size is used to mean both... especially in the same paragraph. 😳 Am I the only one with this affliction?

Jeff

My bad.  I meant MPx count.

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

My bad.  I meant MPx count.

Thanks. Others seem comfortable using the terms interchangeably.

Jeff

[scott kirkpatrick]

51 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

It would also be a good time to launch a couple more lenses ; a fast wide and a compact standard  ?

The 23 is a pretty fine compact standard, but a Leica quality lens somewhere around 40-50/2.0 would be interesting.  Fuji has shown what this design space looks like with its APS-C lenses -- small f/2.0s that sit nicely on their X-Pro series with optical viewfinders and high quality f/1.4s for use on the X-Tn cameras.  Something like a 14 or 16 mm f/1.4 or 1.8 (small sized, but not pancake) would be nice to see.  Maybe Sigma will come through with that one. A new design, not a remount of their somewhat older model.

Edited May 11, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[bags27]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Pedantic interruption, but to me, sensor size = physical sensor size (e.g., APS-C vs larger format), while higher MP means higher MP (increased resolution).  This seems more relevant now that there appears to be a simultaneous trend toward higher MPs as well as larger, yet more affordable, sensor cameras (Fuji, etc). My brain rebels when sensor size is used to mean both... especially in the same paragraph. 😳 Am I the only one with this affliction?

Jeff

I like the euphonic "denser sensor" 😀

[raadoo]

1 hour ago, FrozenInTime said:

It would also be a good time to launch a couple more lenses ; a fast wide and a compact standard  ?

Not to derail from the CL2 conversation, but a quick look at available dates for the current 7 APS-C lenses:

• 18mm f/2.8 | November 21, 2017
• 23mm f/2 | April 29, 2014
• 35mm f/1.4 | November 30, 2015
• 60mm f/2.8 | September 30, 2016
• 11-23mm f/3.5-4.5 | September 16, 2014
• 18-56mm f/3.5-5.6 | April 29, 2014
• 55-135mm f/3.5-4.5 | September 16, 2014

says 30 months have passed since the last lens was released.

Everyone from Maike Harberts to Peter Karbe have stated that Leica is commited to keeping the APS-C line alive, though the numbers are not painting quite the same picture.

To be honest, a CL2 with IBIS would breath new life into some of these lenses, particularly the 35mm as a(n even more) capable low light camera and of course the 55-135mm where stabilisation would really help us jittery folk a bit. Add in a 150-300mm and a bright 16mm and we [should] all be pretty much set?

[Le Chef]

While I have an 11-23, 23, and 18-56, I still think a a 16mm f2/2.8, a 35mm f2 and a 90mm f2.8 would be good lenses to add.

[scott kirkpatrick]

1 hour ago, raadoo said:

Not to derail from the CL2 conversation, but a quick look at available dates for the current 7 APS-C lenses:

• 18mm f/2.8 | November 21, 2017
• 23mm f/2 | April 29, 2014
• 35mm f/1.4 | November 30, 2015
• 60mm f/2.8 | September 30, 2016
• 11-23mm f/3.5-4.5 | September 16, 2014
• 18-56mm f/3.5-5.6 | April 29, 2014
• 55-135mm f/3.5-4.5 | September 16, 2014

says 30 months have passed since the last lens was released.

Everyone from Maike Harberts to Peter Karbe have stated that Leica is commited to keeping the APS-C line alive, though the numbers are not painting quite the same picture.

To be honest, a CL2 with IBIS would breath new life into some of these lenses, particularly the 35mm as a(n even more) capable low light camera and of course the 55-135mm where stabilisation would really help us jittery folk a bit. Add in a 150-300mm and a bright 16mm and we [should] all be pretty much set?

Some of those lenses (and perhaps the SL's 16-35 as well) were the result of some joint work with Japanese lens manufacturer/designers.  I wonder if that relationship is still in place.  Peter Karbe likes to say that Leica and he learned a great deal from their experience with the TL/CL lenses.  And they must be very busy for the next year or two getting the 21, 24, and 28 SL (APO?) lenses out the door.  So we should look for the right match between Leica's APS-C needs and the unacknowledged partners on whom Leica might draw to see what it is reasonable to hope for this Christmas.

53 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

While I have an 11-23, 23, and 18-56, I still think a a 16mm f2/2.8, a 35mm f2 and a 90mm f2.8 would be good lenses to add.

I have Fuji's 16/1.4.  It's quite nice, but fairly large.  Since I think of the CL with a wide angle lens as an agile street and travel camera, and I have an order in for a 24 SL prime already, I'd like to see a 14/2.0 designed to be awesomely sharp, almost like one of the tiny M Super Elmars at 21 and 24 mm.  I would think if everything is kept small, fast AF could be accomplished.  Looking at the dates above, there would be no embarrassment in announcing a 23/2.0 upgrade to appear in 2022. 

There's one more missing ingredient -- an equivalent to the R's 80/1.4 and the S's 100/2.0 -- a longish portrait lens with good planar separation and "buttery" bokeh.  So I would put a 75-80/2.0 with these specific characteristics (not a Thambar, please! ) in place of your 90/2.8.   

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[jaapv]

I still wish that they would translate the Panaleica DG Vario-Elmar 100-400 to APS-C... Peter Karbe could tame the bokeh a bit - it would be fantastic.