Arrival and Features of the CL2

[lct]

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Not interested in IBIS if it makes the camera bigger and i don't want more pixels if i cannot get cleaner 6400 & 3200 isos. I don't hold my breath but i may be wrong.

[Boojay]

2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I still wish that they would translate the Panaleica DG Vario-Elmar 100-400 to APS-C...

Absolutely. TBH I think that with TL/SL as well as Panasonic and Sigma offerings, all ground is pretty well covered maybe not to everyone's preference, (size /weight /speed) but there is nothing for the above.  

 

[tommonego@gmail.com]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb scott kirkpatrick:

The 23 is a pretty fine compact standard, but a Leica quality lens somewhere around 40-50/2.0 would be interesting.  Fuji has shown what this design space looks like with its APS-C lenses -- small f/2.0s that sit nicely on their X-Pro series with optical viewfinders and high quality f/1.4s for use on the X-Tn cameras.  Something like a 14 or 16 mm f/1.4 or 1.8 (small sized, but not pancake) would be nice to see.  Maybe Sigma will come through with that one. A new design, not a remount of their somewhat older model.

Problem is Sigma already has a 14 f1.8 and a 16 f1.4 (may be reversed) and they are huge, somewhere around a kilo in weight. Hardly what I want on my CL. I am using a Tokina 11-16 f2.8 zoom and it is big but not too heavy. I would be satisfied with a 14 or 16 f2.8 if it is small enough. All the rest is a good dream that some of it comes true.

 

[Le Chef]

I think having light and compact lenses is key. You might lose a stop in absolute light-capturing performance,  but that wieldiness makes them more useful across a range of applications.

I’m a big supporter of Colin Chapman’s philosophy of “Just add lightness” particularly when it comes to photographic equipment. I recently talked to a neighbor who has a FF Nikon setup and I couldn’t believe how big and heavy all the lenses were. I asked him how he carried them all when he went on vacation? Pointing a thumb in the direction of his wife he said “that’s what she’s for.” So there we have it: marry your Sherpa.

In all seriousness I also think with all the asks we Have for the CL2 there’s going to have to be a trade-off when it comes to weight and size: when does IBIS or weatherproofing add too much weight to make it worthwhile?

[scott kirkpatrick]

8 hours ago, Le Chef said:

I think having light and compact lenses is key. You might lose a stop in absolute light-capturing performance,  but that wieldiness makes them more useful across a range of applications.

I’m a big supporter of Colin Chapman’s philosophy of “Just add lightness” particularly when it comes to photographic equipment. I recently talked to a neighbor who has a FF Nikon setup and I couldn’t believe how big and heavy all the lenses were. I asked him how he carried them all when he went on vacation? Pointing a thumb in the direction of his wife he said “that’s what she’s for.” So there we have it: marry your Sherpa.

In all seriousness I also think with all the asks we Have for the CL2 there’s going to have to be a trade-off when it comes to weight and size: when does IBIS or weatherproofing add too much weight to make it worthwhile?

Look at the differences between the SL and the SL2.  Right.  There was not much increase in weight or dimensions from adding IBIS or further improvements in weatherproofing.  That's why I think both will happen in the CL2. 

Lenses that overcome the impossible barriers of weight and bulk may take longer, or not happen at f/1.4.  The CL's 18 mm pancake was introduced at the same time as the CL2, perhaps to make the pair of them an "item" and provide a feeling of forward movement when the news about the TL series had stalled.  So maybe we will see one new lens readied for appearance at the same time as the CL2.  I failed to appreciate the 18 mm "kit lens" until I used a loaner heavily at a state fair in Ohio and got nice shots with it. (See David Farkas' review for a similar surprised reaction.)  Maybe there is room in my Christmas stocking for whatever lens Leica chooses to introduce with the CL2, and I will discover its superpowers in time.

[Peters]

The CL2 will most definitely come. When is the big question, given the current state of affairs. But a few suggested improvements would be:

1. Option to fixate the single AF point to the centre. Leica could actually do that now with a software update. No idea why it doesn't. 
2. Make the two spinning dials on the top plate stiffer and not protruding so far on the edge of the body.
3. Have the two spinning dials dedicated to shutter speed and aperture, with the appropriate engravings, a la X bodies. You can then remove the top LCD screen.

Point number 3 would in my opinion would bring the CL closer to the traditional philosophy that Leica seems to be aiming for with this model. Having unmarked, do-all-you-can controls that spin and press down are, at least for me, unnecessary. As an M shooter, I like having dedicated dials that I can confidently operate based on feel and without thought. As much as I enjoy the CL, there’s always a period during the shoot where I am looking down trying to figure out how and why my settings got inadvertently adjusted.

Simple, straightforward controls inspire confidence, and is one of the main reasons why the M and Q cameras have achieved legendary status. And why the X line still has a cult following (at least amongst X1 and X2 users). Why not continue that with the CL?

Oh, and more prime APSC lenses! We have the zoom lens range covered with light, portable lenses. Now if we could add APSC-sized fast primes into the mix then we could fill out the range. A few more summilux’s and a 90mm 1.7 (135mm equivalent) would be wonderful. 

[jaapv]

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The CL does indeed function well as an M lens carrier, but it is in fact a full mirrorless design including all functions. If you would limit the usefulness of the top wheels by making them basic analog controls you would destroy the brilliant user interface when the camera is used with its native lenses. The result would be a classic mirrorless camera dotted with buttons, which has to be taken from the eye for most adjustments.

[LocalHero1953]

I would go for a CL2 with these changes:

Hardware
- One extra button. TBH I don't mind where it is, it just needs it for back button focusing.
- Weather proofing: nice, but they should have thought of that for the CL. What use is a weatherproof CL2 when the lenses aren't?
- IBIS: nice, but I seem to be managing without.
- More pixels: I would sacrifice pixels any day for better high-ISO performance in noise, colour and dynamic range. If these were better I would be happy with 18Mp!
- Faster EVF, less lag (it's not bad, just could be better). I would sacrifice increased resolution for speed.
- Better video: more settings choices, HDMI-out port.
- Electronic shutter with much faster readout. 1/20 - 1/30sec doesn't cut it these days.
- No extra bulk plus smooth off the looks.

Firmware
- Clearer menus. I haven't tried the later Leicas (M10, Q2, SL2), but the Sigma fp shows how it should be done: a customisable graphic touch QuickMenu, like the TL2; main menu pages laid out in colour-coded functional groups (e.g. Shoot, Play, Setup). No page to have more items than can fit on the page, necessitating scrolling. Avoid submenus except for specific functions. Flicking from page to page makes it easy to find what you want.
- More custom profiles - 10 would suit me.
- Single actions assignable as single press to a button: e.g. recentre focus, toggle face/spot AF, toggle AF/MF etc.
- Dump the multiple function assignment to dials and buttons. Listen to your inner Das Wesentliche - it says 'no'.
- Better battery life indicator. I get taken by surprise too often.

Edited May 12, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

Agree; a warning for battery  level that comes a bit sooner  than one shot before the camera dies would be nice.

[wda]

I am disappointed that Leica has not fixed zero battery warning with a firmware update. Please could Leica make this a priority fix for existing cameras.

[scott kirkpatrick]

49 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Agree; a warning for battery  level that comes a bit sooner  than one shot before the camera dies would be nice.

 

22 minutes ago, wda said:

I am disappointed that Leica has not fixed zero battery warning with a firmware update. Please could Leica make this a priority fix for existing cameras.

Leica's four bar resolution on the battery monitor seems to have been picked up from a far eastern partner, since it is common in other cameras from that part of the world.  For the CL2 and other future Leicas, let's go full M10 and show a result in percentage of battery remaining.

[geoffreyg]

How about a long telephoto, either prime or zoom, w stabilization in the lens? 

[jaapv]

15 hours ago, jaapv said:

I still wish that they would translate the Panaleica DG Vario-Elmar 100-400 to APS-C... Peter Karbe could tame the bokeh a bit - it would be fantastic.

 

[rob_w]

18 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

There's one more missing ingredient -- an equivalent to the R's 80/1.4 and the S's 100/2.0

+1  A good portrait lens in the medium telephoto range is a glaring omission from the lineup at the moment

[ramarren]

I've said it before and I'll repeat it again: The CL as it is right now is just about as good as I want or need. The single thing that would incite/motivate me to buy another as an "upgrade" would be the addition of a physical port to allow a wired remote release. I really don't need or want anything more. An even better quality sensor would be a plus, an additional (ONE) programmable button to allow one more customizable control choice, and even some kind of image stabilization system as long as it didn't change the size or degrade sensor quality would all be fine but are mostly just nice-to-have conveniences.

I have all the lens choices I can ever use, more than I can use in fact, because I have all the fast, wide, long, etc, Leica M and R lenses, and macro system, that are the only lenses I use on the CL. 

I don't need or want more touch screen capabilities, more automation, more discrete controls, or just more of most anything else. Add a remote release port so I can put it on a tripod or copy stand and make exposures without needing to use a wireless remote app or the self timer, and I'm done.

G

Edited May 12, 2020 by ramarren

[jaapv]

And design  a more practical handgrip...🙄

[Le Chef]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

And design  a more practical handgrip...🙄

It needs a trapdoor to access the battery and memory card without having to take the grip off the camera.

[jaapv]

And a tripod thread 

[nicci78]

CL2 needs to provide weather sealing and IBIS at minimum, to be relevant. 
It can be a little bit bigger. Not a big deal, it is so small, that a little bit of muscle wouldn’t hurt. 

I am not sure if it will get a new sensor. Which one ? Nobody seems in a hurry to go higher than 24/26MP in APS-C except Canon. However coupling 32.5MP with anti aliasing filter is quite odd. 
BSI seems to give no advantage against FSI for m4/3 and bigger sensor. 
26MP is virtually identical to 24MP. 
36 or 39MP (to provide 8K video) seems way too much for APS-C size. I think that TL lenses can handle them. But I am not so sure about Sony and Fuji lenses. Their oldest lenses already struggled from 16 to 24MP. Imagine with 36MP... 
That’s why Sony and Fujifilm do not hurry to upgrade to higher MP count  

If they go with 36MP, they will need to give us IBIS. But I am afraid that high ISO will suffer a lot. I really hate Q2 noise over 3200-6400 ISO. Whereas 12800 ISO is still OK for CL.

Then last. With COVID-19 I am pretty sure that all cameras will be delayed. So no CL2 in 2020. Maybe late 2021

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[ramarren]

7 hours ago, jaapv said:

And design  a more practical handgrip...🙄

I don't use a handgrip. I use a half-case when walking about with the camera, and I like the Jason Cui half-case a little more than the Leica Protector ... It's more convenient in use. I remove it when I'm using the camera on a tripod or copy stand.