Effects of not having EFCS?

[jaapv]

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Strange - The smaller Panasonic cameras have had a menu setting (automatic e-shutter) that will switch to E-shutter at the critical speed of 125 for quite a while, so camera designers are well aware of the phenomenon.

[ZHNL]

1 hour ago, michali said:

Thanks for sharing your experience. I first encountered this issue with the Sony A7R. 

Just to understand properly, have you only noticed this issue with the Panasonic lenses?

Has anyone tried or experienced this with the Leica VE 90-280mm?

Thanks,

Mike

You are welcome. I really do hope this is an isolated case that only affect me

I only notice this with Panasonic 70-200mm. (but again, you see I promote using either E-shutter or EFCS whenever possible for IQ, I want emphasis this is not a simple mechanic shutter issue given other lens seems work reasonable well. ) 

I don't have S1R but do have S1, and S1 is only 24M, however, my general impression is S1 is more fool proof in IBIS. It is better than Z7 which is better than A7rII I had. I don't like IBIS and even turn it off with Sony I had until I feel confident about it after extensive in field experience with Z7 and to my surprise, S1 is even better. 

However, maybe SL2 is as good as S1 and I don't want make blank statement without proof. I definitely need more time with SL2 and shoot more images with it, a lot more.  

BTW, before Panasonic update their latest firmware, at low light, back button focus will stop working but half press button still works under the same condition with a few AF glass I have. (70-200, Sigma 45) . After update, this get solved. The funny thing is SL2 has this exact same problem. Back button will stop work under low light, then half press shutter will work under the same condition. It is like taking test in school, someone claim they didn't cheat but copy pretty much every single word of the answer include ridicules wrong one.  I hope this is not a bad humor. 

I look forward to new firmware that solve as many annoyance and bug like these as possible.  

Edited December 16, 2019 by ZHNL

[caissa]

10 hours ago, SrMi said:

- The electronic shutter can cause motion distortion because the sensor readout speed is typically slow (except on Sony a9).

- The mechanical shutter uses a mechanical front and rear curtain. The front (first) curtain can often cause vibration in cameras at certain shutter speeds, a vibration that can reduce the sharpness of a photograph (aka shutter shock).

- EFCS (electronic first curtain shutter) uses a mechanical rear curtain to eliminate the motion distortion and electronic front curtain to reduce vibration.

Most mirrorless cameras offer EFCS. Leica never did. Until reporting by ZHNL, I have never heard of SL cameras having shutter-shock issues.

Many articles on the web, including the one that you linked to, are unfortunately incorrect AFAIK. Jim Kasson has a blog where he writes very competently about issues, including EFCS. Be aware that Jim's writing is not always easy to understand :-).

The holy grail of electronic shutters is the 'global shutter' (current electronic shutters are 'rolling shutters'). It will make mechanical shutters obsolete; cameras will be simpler and lighter.

 

 

Trying to get a better understanding.  Can you say where the article is incorrect (hopefully not everything), and how it should be corrected ?

[SrMi]

6 minutes ago, caissa said:

Trying to get a better understanding.  Can you say where the article is incorrect (hopefully not everything), and how it should be corrected ?

That page does not seem up-to-date (May 2015). Some issues that I found:

- The camera does not scan the sensor to begin exposure, it resets it (fast).

- The sharpness improvement in some mirrorless cameras can be significant (Sony a7, Nikon Z).

- Most shutter shock issues have been demonstrated at shutter speeds around 1/100.

- The article is talking about MUP vs. EFCS. On D850 (DSLRs have MUP) you can use EFCS only with MUP and  live view.

- Many mirrorless cameras should be using EFCS all the time.

etc

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, ZHNL said:

You are welcome. I really do hope this is an isolated case that only affect me

I only notice this with Panasonic 70-200mm. (but again, you see I promote using either E-shutter or EFCS whenever possible for IQ, I want emphasis this is not a simple mechanic shutter issue given other lens seems work reasonable well. ) 

I don't have S1R but do have S1, and S1 is only 24M, however, my general impression is S1 is more fool proof in IBIS. It is better than Z7 which is better than A7rII I had. I don't like IBIS and even turn it off with Sony I had until I feel confident about it after extensive in field experience with Z7 and to my surprise, S1 is even better. 

However, maybe SL2 is as good as S1 and I don't want make blank statement without proof. I definitely need more time with SL2 and shoot more images with it, a lot more.  

BTW, before Panasonic update their latest firmware, at low light, back button focus will stop working but half press button still works under the same condition with a few AF glass I have. (70-200, Sigma 45) . After update, this get solved. The funny thing is SL2 has this exact same problem. Back button will stop work under low light, then half press shutter will work under the same condition. It is like taking test in school, someone claim they didn't cheat but copy pretty much every single word of the answer include ridicules wrong one.  I hope this is not a bad humor. 

I look forward to new firmware that solve as many annoyance and bug like these as possible.  

Can you elaborate how you use back-button-focusing with Panasonic 70-200 f/4 and SL2? I assumed that it was not possible.

Panasonic 70-200 f/4 has a mechanical clutch to engage MF (needed for SL/SL2 to use BBF), but that disables all focusing. Is that correct?

[ZHNL]

18 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Can you elaborate how you use back-button-focusing with Panasonic 70-200 f/4 and SL2? I assumed that it was not possible.

Panasonic 70-200 f/4 has a mechanical clutch to engage MF (needed for SL/SL2 to use BBF), but that disables all focusing. Is that correct?

For SL2, only sigma 45 shows this. For S1, both were. I only have those two L AF glass. 
edit: you can use back button focus with 70-200 but you can’t decouple shutter.

Edited December 16, 2019 by ZHNL

[thighslapper]

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20 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Can you elaborate how you use back-button-focusing with Panasonic 70-200 f/4 and SL2? I assumed that it was not possible.

Panasonic 70-200 f/4 has a mechanical clutch to engage MF (needed for SL/SL2 to use BBF), but that disables all focusing. Is that correct?

...... again this shows up Leica's illogicality in their implementation of BBF and the inability to completely decouple it from the shutter. 

BBF does function with the 70-200 ..... but it remains active on the shutter as well. The mechanical clutch MF cannot be overridden by the camera. 

[ZHNL]

8 hours ago, ZHNL said:

You are welcome. I really do hope this is an isolated case that only affect me

I only notice this with Panasonic 70-200mm. (but again, you see I promote using either E-shutter or EFCS whenever possible for IQ, I want emphasis this is not a simple mechanic shutter issue given other lens seems work reasonable well. ) 

I don't have S1R but do have S1, and S1 is only 24M, however, my general impression is S1 is more fool proof in IBIS. It is better than Z7 which is better than A7rII I had. I don't like IBIS and even turn it off with Sony I had until I feel confident about it after extensive in field experience with Z7 and to my surprise, S1 is even better. 

However, maybe SL2 is as good as S1 and I don't want make blank statement without proof. I definitely need more time with SL2 and shoot more images with it, a lot more.  

BTW, before Panasonic update their latest firmware, at low light, back button focus will stop working but half press button still works under the same condition with a few AF glass I have. (70-200, Sigma 45) . After update, this get solved. The funny thing is SL2 has this exact same problem. Back button will stop work under low light, then half press shutter will work under the same condition. It is like taking test in school, someone claim they didn't cheat but copy pretty much every single word of the answer include ridicules wrong one.  I hope this is not a bad humor. 

I look forward to new firmware that solve as many annoyance and bug like these as possible.  

About back button stop working under low light, I have to take it back now. It was not just simple as low light. I tried this morning and can’t repeat. There has to be some combination to make it happen. I don’t know what that is and will try tonight with artificial light when that happened. (Maybe there were some other setting combination trigger it)

[Leicaiste]

Funny that the non Leica certified Panasonic 24-105 F 4 works perfectly well with BBF and you can easily decouple the AF from the shutter by switching to MF on the lens barrel. 
 

It even easier than on the Leica L 24-90.

😉

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Edited December 16, 2019 by Leicaiste

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, thighslapper said:

...... again this shows up Leica's illogicality in their implementation of BBF and the inability to completely decouple it from the shutter. 

BBF does function with the 70-200 ..... but it remains active on the shutter as well. The mechanical clutch MF cannot be overridden by the camera. 

BBF is generally regarded as a technique where focusing is decoupled from the shutter button. Using a back button only to lock focus does not implement the advantages of what is known as back-button-focusing.

In presence of Panasonic lenses, I agree that Leica should allow decoupling shutter button from focusing in AF modes.

[SrMi]

33 minutes ago, Leicaiste said:

Funny that the non Leica certified Panasonic 24-105 F 4 works perfectly well with BBF and you can easily decouple the AF from the shutter by switching to MF on the lens barrel. 
 

It even easier than on the Leica L 24-90.

😉

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Panasonic 24-105 does not have a focus clutch mechanism. Any lens without focus clutch works fine with Leica SL back button focusing.

The advantage of focus clutch is that you have a distance scale for manual focusing. The disadvantage is that BBF does not work with SL/SL2.

[SrMi]

On 12/15/2019 at 7:33 PM, ZHNL said:

1/80S to 1/125S, handhold, OIS on, IBIS on. 70/100/135/200. distance is about 200~300M I would guess but infinity should do as well. I also did make sure it was not focus issue. 

I did the test twice try to isolate the problem. (turn off OIS will make things even worse) E shutter first and M shutter next, for all four images, two times, E shutter is noticeable sharper than M shutter on every single one. I don't even know if this is the 'magic' shutter speed make it happen. I haven't done any systematic test to prove it. Before doing that, I disable M shutter for this lens. 

I will put on tripod redo the test later but can't promise the time table. However, I did the test before on Gitzo 3 tripod and know EFCS make difference for sure on pretty much every cameras include SLR D850. (With Leica S, 2 sec release delay will automatically trigger MLUP) So I am not sure on what degree, S1R is free of vibration with mechanical shutter. 

SL2's problem is way worse than any other cameras in this regard but I don't use long glass a lot so I might just have miss it before. Z7 with 70-200f4 with EFCS and IBIS show no problem what so ever though. I have about 800~1000 images from that combo, hardly any blur ones at all, so I know what to expect. 

I have tried 1/60 and 1/125, IBIS on, handheld, VE 90-280mm with SL2, IS on. The electronic shutter type produces sharper images than mechanical shutter 😞

I consider now lack of EFCS a serious issue with SL2 and would recommend using electronic shutter whenever possible.

[ZHNL]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I have tried 1/60 and 1/125, IBIS on, handheld, VE 90-280mm with SL2, IS on. The electronic shutter type produces sharper images than mechanical shutter 😞

I consider now lack of EFCS a serious issue with SL2 and would recommend using electronic shutter whenever possible.

I appreciate your report. I don’t have time to run tripod test, but really That is FYI type of thing and it is not important for me. On tripod for me means  slow shutter speed, or long exposure, I see no reason to not use Eshutter. 

For tracking moving stuff, I will just leave shutter speed as high as I could with M shutter and take the IQ hit if there is any.  for most stuff I truly care IQ, I will and I am fine with using Eshutter. 
 

I don’t really need any confirmation TBH, even it is Only because my poor holding technic, it will be still a problem for me in field using this damn Mshutter no matter what others reported.   I simply want report this issue to get people or Leica’s attention.
 

As I said, I don’t think I see the same degree of problem with M lens, however, this is still destroy my confidence    about it. It requires lots of usage to get a feeling how reliable it is. Nikon Z gained my trust, so was S1. I hope SL2 can do the same. 

[HeliFish]

On 12/15/2019 at 5:08 AM, SrMi said:

 

Electronic first curtain shutter. Eliminates vibrations caused by a mechanical first curtain (mechanical shutter).

I thought it was Electronic Flight Control System, but then I'm a pilot.

[Exodies]

Effects of not having EFCS?

your pictures become irrelevant.