rumors SL2 with 36MP sensor only

[Chaemono]

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BTW,

46.7 MPx = 8,368 pixels × 5,584 pixels

36 MPx = 7360 pixels x 4912 pixels

The difference in linear resolution is 13.7%. 😀

[Jeff S]

21 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

BTW,

46.7 MPx = 8,368 pixels × 5,584 pixels

36 MPx = 7360 pixels x 4912 pixels

The difference in linear resolution is 13.7%. 😀

Combined with the fact that not all pixels perform equally (sensor technology, software, lens compatibility, etc), let alone differences in user technique, workflow and display output, the MP count  difference is immaterial to me.  The assessment will be in the handling, shooting and printing.  It’s a camera, not a spec sheet.

Jeff

[caissa]

44 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

BTW,

46.7 MPx = 8,368 pixels × 5,584 pixels

36 MPx = 7360 pixels x 4912 pixels

The difference in linear resolution is 13.7%. 😀

24 MP =  6000x4000        Depending upon budget, I probably need no upgrade at all ....      linearly (7360 to 6000 and 8368 to 6000)    22.66%  and 39.466%

Edited August 25, 2019 by caissa

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Minute schrieb caissa:

24 MP =  6000x4000        Depending upon budget, I probably need no upgrade at all ....      linearly (7360/6000 - 1.0)   on 12.266%

Interesting formula. I haven't had math since 11th grade, but it's 22.67% difference in linear resolution between 24 and 36.15 MPx according to my calculation. 😁

[caissa]

you are not up to date ...   

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Very good question. It’s clearly stated that Sony will make the 36 MPx sensor available to customers. One would hope that AF software to complement its on-chip PDAF functionality  is offered, too. 

The nice thing about that Sony sensor is that speed is just one aspect of it. 16 bit for 10 fps and almost 2 stops of DR improvement is what attracts me. With ON1 Resize, one can upsize 36 MPx to useful 72 MPx and then crop 70 percent if needed. There’ll be plenty of detail in the crop, especially with the Summicrons. 😁

added to which - it is not the amount of detail that counts - the viewer will not even notice if one hair or freckle is missing- but the quality of the detail.

[thighslapper]

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One thing that we do not know is at what stage in the product development cycle do companies like Leica decide which sensor to use ......

It's all very well discussing fancy Sony developments, but Leica are hardly likely to have had any more idea what Sony was developing than the rest of us. 

Some decisions about basic components and specifications must have been made several years ago and the sensor tailored to whatever processing power was available at the time. 

Note the release info about the new Leica S3:

 At the heart of the Leica S3 is a brand new, Leica-specific 64 megapixel CMOS chip. This new exclusive sensor architecture features improved dynamic range, superior high ISO performance with lower noise, a new color filter array for better color reproduction, and lower power consumption. The camera is still quick with a 3 frames per second shooting rate, down only very slightly from the 3.5 FPS in the S007, and the ISO range has been bumped from a maximum of ISO 12,500 to ISO 50,000

and .....

the Maestro II image processor in the S3 can churn through 320 megapixels of raw file data per second. That’s still enough capacity to render and display five images per second at 64 MP

so if you want 10fps so are stuck with 36mpx, assuming there is no Maestro III out there ...... which I doubt as they further state:

even though we’re not seeing a new generation of processor, Maestro II was designed with ample headroom. Honestly, there wouldn’t be much benefit here shifting to a new architecture.

Leica have a habit of using firmware and components cross platform and a uniform overall strategy, so 36mpx may well be correct and Leica are pinning their hopes on the usual 'quality over quantity' with a sensor which is improved in other ways. If I was them I would have used the same company to produce sensors for the SL2 and cut down on development and manufacturing costs. A new updated camera with modest development costs and using a lot of old components but with an SL price strikes me as a profitable if unadventurous strategy....

other comments from the S3 interview are worth bearing in mind ......

the sensor features a dual gain structure, which allows us to maximize higher ISO performance. In our test shooting, ISO 6400 looks super clean. Almost no noise whatsoever

we implemented a new color filter array, which is going to offer really amazing color

we really worked on making the sensor very power efficient with extremely low heat output. By running the sensor cooler, this gives the user better battery life, but also delivers the best image quality. You don’t want a hot sensor

some of the mirrorless competitors can run a little warm.... this is one of the reasons why we feel it is best to stick with the DSLR form factor. We have absolutely no problem with dissipating heat, and this allows us to not sacrifice any quality.

All these are signposts of what is likely in the SL2. Just put together the clues and it's not that difficult to see what is likely. They may be different products but this is one company with one overall corporate strategy. 

Whatever, I still think it is going to be too little too late to attract new customers or win back those tempted by the  S1R, Z7 or A7R IV. 

I'll certainly opt for Leica L mount lenses in future ..... which is where I suspect they make most of their money ..... 

Edited August 25, 2019 by thighslapper

[Jeff S]

8 minutes ago, thighslapper said:

I still think it is going to be too little too late to attract new customers. 

Possibly one I can think of.  But it would help to also get an updated native lens roadmap.  I think many have held off on the SL due to the large, heavy zoom options and limited number of (still largish) primes (except those who relied on already owned M lenses). I’m not sure the alliance will change that as much as Leica branded native options.  A more svelte body with some smaller lens options (even if slower and/or with more restricted zoom range) for travel/walk around might garner a bigger audience.  At my print sizes, IQ hasn’t been an issue, even with current generation gear. 

Jeff

[thighslapper]

12 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

 A more svelte body with some smaller lens options (even if slower and/or with more restricted zoom range) for travel/walk around might garner a bigger audience.  At my print sizes, IQ hasn’t been an issue, even with current generation gear. 

Jeff

Not a hope.

That's what the CL is for ..... 

Anyway ...... having pondered on 36mpx I would go along with it if :

Dynamic Range was a LOT better ...... several stops at least and well into MF territory

Noiseless to 3200/6400 like the S3 (allegedly)

The ability to turn off or not require LENR.

IBIS would be a welcome bonus.

Without those as trade-offs against the pixels I'm on the fence. Bear in mind that with high mpx count images noise tends to vanish when downscaled or printed...

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by thighslapper

[Jeff S]

10 minutes ago, thighslapper said:

That's what the CL is for ..... 

Not for me, and I suspect many others.  Not even weather sealed.  

The X1Dii comes closer to my tastes, and that’s with a bigger, not smaller sensor... and weather sealed.

Choices.

Jeff

 

[Chaemono]

Let's take this whole Sony-36-MPx-sensor-in-the-SL2 speculation to the next level and add sort of a "conspiracy theory" to it. The rumor about Sony's new 36 MPx sensor surfaced in November of 2018, together with the 60 MPx one which is now used in the α7R IV. Panasonic announced their FF mirrorless bodies at the end of September 2018. At that time, Sony could probably already share their sensor roadmap with potential customers and what was slated to be introduced in 2019. The SL2 was initially expected in the Spring of 2019. At some point, the date was moved unexpectedly (I still remember the faces) to the Fall of 2019, maybe end of the year. Reason given, the new EPSON EVF chip wasn't ready, yet. 🤣 This could still be true but the ROFL emoji serves the conspiracy theory better. Leica saw what Panasonic was about to introduce and changed their mind. They become more ambitious about the SL2, they needed to differentiate it better from those Panasonic FF cameras. Hence, they started to talk to Sony Semiconductor Solutions, which is supplying them with the CL sensor, and found out about this amazing new 36 MPx FF sensor with on-chip PDAF, 10 fps at 16 bit, almost 2 stops of DR improvement, 20 fps at 14 bit, 8K video, etc.  

BTW, Jono is nowhere to be found in this "debate." He likely has an NDA. I'll place my money on Nicci at this stage. He seems to know his Image Sensor Supplier 101 stuff pretty well judging by posts #46 and #60. 😁

Let's see if Leica Rumors picks up on it. As we move towards the announcement date at the end of September, Leica will want to manage expectations. But they never talk about their sensor suppliers, of course. 😁

 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Chaemono

[Tailwagger]

Checked back in with my local Leica folks to make sure that my slot, from March, for the SL2 was still intact.  Didn't ask, but they volunteered in the reply , 'we definitely think it will have the 47MPx sensor.'   Fingers crossed this is purely a guess, as while I'm likely to buy either way, I'd be far happier with smaller version of the S3 sensor described by ThighSlapper above. That's a theory which easily makes as much sense to me as the obvious one of just dropping the pano in there.  Manufacturing sufficient supply for the SL2 release could also explain the delayed release of the S3.

 

[thighslapper]

14 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

BTW, Jono is nowhere to be found in this "debate." He likely has an NDA. 

.... yes .... but he has dumped his Panasonic S1 and is looking forward to the SL2 ..... despite finding the Panasonic a really good camera 

[Chaemono]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb Tailwagger:

Checked back in with my local Leica folks to make sure that my slot, from March, for the SL2 was still intact.  Didn't ask, but they volunteered in the reply , 'we definitely think it will have the 47MPx sensor.'   Fingers crossed this is purely a guess, as while I'm likely to buy either way, I'd be far happier with smaller version of the S3 sensor described by ThighSlapper above. That's a theory which easily makes as much sense to me as the obvious one of just dropping the pano in there.  Manufacturing sufficient supply for the SL2 release could also explain the delayed release of the S3.

 

One advantage of stores being open on Sundays in some countries is that we get real time information on hot rumors for this board. 

[Tailwagger]

26 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

One advantage of stores being open on Sundays in some countries is that we get real time information on hot rumors for this board. 

Accurate or otherwise. 🙂  By my crude calculation, if the sensor was S3 derived, forgetting any other considerations, it should be around 38.5 MPx.  41MPX... 

30x45=1350, 24x36=864, 864 / 1350 = .64, .64 * 64MPx = 40.96.  A little bad math and we're only 6 MPx down from the Pano. Seems, from a marketing perspective to be easily explained. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Tailwagger

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, thighslapper said:

Anyway ...... having pondered on 36mpx I would go along with it if :

Dynamic Range was a LOT better ...... several stops at least and well into MF territory

Noiseless to 3200/6400 like the S3 (allegedly)

The ability to turn off or not require LENR.

IBIS would be a welcome bonus.

 

 

That’s an example of my earlier points;  people have an array of desires beyond MP.  And speaking of array, a new color array, as discussed last year for the S3 (Farkas blog interview... better reds) would be another nice touch for the SL2.

Jeff

Edited August 25, 2019 by Jeff S

[nicci78]

It may be the newly announced Huawei/Leica yellow bayer filter. Where yellow replaced green. With higher light sensitivity and artificial intelligence to guess what is green and what is yellow. 

 

[Chaemono]

First, the SL2 will use a 36 MPx sensor, likely an amazing one from Sony, and now it’ll come with a Huawei/Leica yellow Bayer filter for higher light sensitivity and AI. You better be right, Nicci, otherwise get ready for some tarring and feathering on this forum when the SL2 is announced with the Q2 sensor. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Chaemono

[Agent M10]

36 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

First, the SL2 will use a 36 MPx sensor, likely an amazing one from Sony, and now it’ll come with a Huawei/Leica yellow Bayer filter for higher light sensitivity and AI. You better be right, Nicci, otherwise get ready for some tarring and feathering on this forum when the SL2 is announced with the Q2 sensor. 

We haven't seen the S3 with its new color array yet. It'd be surprising to see an SL2 with one before the S3 is actually rolled out. 

Edited August 25, 2019 by Agent M10

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[nicci78]

 My first question was to know if any of you got similar information from your reseller. Because the 36MP info was unique, never heard of before. I just want some confirmation from you  

This french reseller is kind of a legend in France. And be quite sure. But it is not my regular store. 

Let’s see the 24th of September 

 

the yellow Bayer filter was from Leica executive interview . That they will use this tech in future cameras 

Edited August 25, 2019 by nicci78