Leica APO summicron 50 SL vs Summilux 50 SL?

[Chaemono]

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And now the crops.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-thQ8ZX/

α7R III + Sony FE 55/1.8 Sonnar at f/1.8 crop (yucky)

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S1R + APO 50 Summicron-SL at f/2 crop (clean, except that the FSI sensor shows in the crop)

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[BernardC]

5 hours ago, Chaemono said:

And now the crops.

Wow, that's a huge difference in chromatic aberration. The Summicron also looks sharper to my eyes, but that might be because of small differences in focus.

[Chaemono]

Focus is on the same spot in both. What is also evident to me is that the SL Summicrons need a high MPx BSI sensor, just like Sony’s above, which is almost five years old btw, to make use of their full potential in order to approach the performance of the X1D for detail resolution and color depth. I’m hopefully that the 48ish MPx SL2 sensor is not merely a derivative of the S1R/Q2 sensor. It beats me how one would be able to convert some of the non-effective pixels of that 50 MPx sensor to effective pixels anyway.

Edited October 4, 2019 by Chaemono

[BernardC]

9 hours ago, Chaemono said:

What is also evident to me is that the SL Summicrons need a high MPx BSI sensor, just like Sony’s above

Can you point-out where you see this? Looking at your examples, the Sony is slightly noisier in the out-of-focus mid-tones, but only by a tiny amount. It's almost too close to call. I don't see a clear advantage for BSI, or for FSI, but maybe I am missing something.

As for high MPx, you can get that with an S1R right now. No need to wait. That's the great advantage of the L-mount alliance, different brands can offer completely different cameras. Not to harp on Sony, but they basically offer one body with multiple sensors (and a few tweaks). The SL, S1*, and fp each have their own compelling features.

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb BernardC:

Can you point-out where you see this? Looking at your examples, the Sony is slightly noisier in the out-of-focus mid-tones, but only by a tiny amount. It's almost too close to call. I don't see a clear advantage for BSI, or for FSI, but maybe I am missing something.

Bernard, to my eyes the S1R is slightly noisier in the out-of-focus mid-tones, but only by a tiny amount. Go figure. 😁

[BernardC]

34 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Bernard, to my eyes the S1R is slightly noisier in the out-of-focus mid-tones, but only by a tiny amount. Go figure. 😁

It really is a tiny difference, certainly not something you would notice in a print, or at normal magnifications.

[jrp]

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I do enjoy my SL lenses, but for those not invested, I do wonder whether other manufacturers have got the idea that high quality is the niche that they need to occupy before phone /  computational photography take over, and the DSLR  / Mirror photographers of today will become the black and white film eccentrics of the day.  This https://www.ephotozine.com/article/nikon-nikkor-z-85mm-f-1-8-s-review-34020/performance looks pretty good and Canon's f1.2 50mm also seems to be on the money.  The newest Sigma lenses trade bulk for performance, even if their QC isn't spotless.  But then they aren't charging Leica prices.  Luckily they fit L-mount cameras.

I'm pleased that Sigma is testing out lenses like the 45mm f2.5 contemporary, which combines ASPH lenses with older-style rendering, in come circumstances (just as Nikon has its 58mm f1.4).

 

[Chaemono]

vor 12 Stunden schrieb BernardC:

It really is a tiny difference, certainly not something you would notice in a print, or at normal magnifications.

Son of a gun, you could be right. Bill Claff used two dimensional (2D) Fourier Transforms to detect any "nearest neighbor" signal processing (I was going to do the same but he beat me to it) and discovered that the S1R uses noise reduction below ISO 250. I wonder how much sharper the 50 Summicron-SL would be without it. I sure hope the SL2 doesn't pre-treat its DNG files with noise reduction at such low ISO. But if it's an FSI sensor, it may.

[cirke]

I read the whole thread and I still wonder if I take the summilux or the summicron, I would prefer the summilux but I wonder if the difference is really worth the extra weight and size.

[tom0511]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb cirke:

I read the whole thread and I still wonder if I take the summilux or the summicron, I would prefer the summilux but I wonder if the difference is really worth the extra weight and size.

difficult question. I feele the Lux is a bit more special in rendering, smoother an a little Noctiluxstyle, allmost medium format look. The Summicron more crispy, but also quite nice Bokeh.

There is quite a difference in size and weight.

I wanted to sell the Lux after getting the Cron but I cant

Maybe also depends whch other lenses you own/plan to get.

 

[cirke]

Is it a problem for you to walk many hours with the 50 Summilux?

[Athornton]

I hesitate to advise as we all have different priorities and existing equipment.  However, if I were starting today, I would first complete a suitable set of crons (say 28, 50 and 90) before scratching the itch for the lux. As an early adopter, my choice was easier, as the lux was the only prime available at the time. Today I have both. 

When heading out for the day the 50 cron is a natural choice, if creamy backgrounds are in order the 90 is fantastic.

On paper the lux would sit well with the 24, 35 and (75)/90 crons, but logic shouldn’t be allowed to interfere when it comes to photography!

Good luck with your deliberations, both 50mm choices have their merits.  The only bad decision is to live without a native 50mm lens!

[RoySmith]

Peter Karbe discusses the SL lenses including the 50mm cron and lux in this Leica Akademie Australia presentation.

The SL crons are designed to work exceptionally well with future sensors up to 100 MP. The 50mm SL lux is not designed/built to that specification. It’s not clear to me if that affects its performance on a 24 or 47MP sensor. The lux does give superior bokeh. Peter Karbe emphasizes that he recommends that the lenses be used wide open as much as possible. 

[Slender]

Well thank god Peter Karbe is a great engineer but sorry, this statement of his "why stop down? (he even had a t-shirt printed with this) shows me he should stay where he excels: in the lab.
I know HCB used a 50 1.2 back in the day but surely he also wanted people to actually see something in his picture.... "f8 and be there".

I have the impression that if Karbe solely was in charge, Leica would be only offering bonkers noctiluxes at unusable DOF on 200MP sensors.

Luckuly he also pulled another great lens before rambling all about MTF and contrast curves: the Summilux-M 50 Asph, 16 years ago already: surely a "sub-par" and flawed thing compared to the transparent APO lenses he is in charge of, now.

I wonder what he thinks about the new 24mp SL2s ("Nein! Too low resolution, die 50 APO ASPH will provoque Moire on it!!)".

I hope leica will put this sensor in a future M camera so we can keep using "average" leica lenses further in the future (and in the dark).

[tom0511]

vor 19 Stunden schrieb cirke:

Is it a problem for you to walk many hours with the 50 Summilux?

No, it depends which/ how many other lenses you plan to carry at the same time.

SL2+50/1.4 fine. SL2+zoom +50/1.4, mmhhhh, not for a 3 hours hike for my taste.

[tom0511]

If I shoot images of the Kids at home or when we go to the lake for swimming I bring the Lux.

I had also some hikes with just the 50 Lux and while it didnt work for all subjects I had a lot of fun and got some really cool images.

But it is not the fast small lens which you throw in the bag just in case the light gets low.

 

[cirke]

Ill buy the 50 Summicron for now and maybe take additionally  the Mitakon Zhongyi Speedmaster 50mm f/0.95  for fun 

 

thanks

[tom0511]

Good decision, I think the 50 Chron is the more flexible 50mm Leica and balances great on the SL2.

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Hallo,

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[RBB]

Yes the Summilux is heavy, still I walk around with it, photo's are gorgeous.

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