Why Are So Few Buying the S1R?

[ron777]

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6 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Judging from Ron’s defending the “form follows function” maxim, he is firmly in the Panasonic camp, mind you.

I am a pragmatist, sir. My interest lies in—in re photography—the acquisition of images, and to that end I will employ whatever tool achieves that goal.  I am not afflicted by logo love, and couldn't care less how the image acquiring tool is branded.  You wax poetically about the Leica SL2, so I must assume that you have intimate knowledge of its form and underlying structure, otherwise your words are merely hyperbole.  And, yes, I realize that this is a LEICA forum, but my assumption was that we are all interested in photography per se, but I guess that my conjecture was misguided.  To summarize, I am not a member of any camp, but I do feel very strongly that function, within the limits of rationality, should supersede form, and like the hypothetically, exceptionally beautiful girlfriend with the mind of an empty gourd (I speak from experience), beauty without equivalent function is, IMO, of limited value.

Edited August 22, 2019 by ron777

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[Timkr]

Well said

[ron777]

Thank you.

[Chaemono]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb ron777:

..., and like the hypothetically, exceptionally beautiful girlfriend with the mind of an empty gourd (I speak from experience), beauty without equivalent function is, IMO, of limited value.

Let’s leave blonde jokes out of this, please. 

vor 15 Minuten schrieb ron777:

You wax poetically about the Leica SL2,...

I don’t wax anything except my car’s leather seats occasionally. 

vor 24 Minuten schrieb ron777:

...I must assume that you have intimate knowledge of its form and underlying structure,...

I haven’t fondled it, yet, if that’s what you mean.

vor 27 Minuten schrieb ron777:

...otherwise your words are merely hyperbole.  

I know someone who knows someone who thinks he’s seen it. It has round corners. 😁

[ron777]

Who said that she was blond ... not me.

Waxing leather automobile seats went out with the horse and buggy.  Modern tanning negates the need for same.

"I know someone who knows someone who thinks he’s seen it. It has round corners."  And I know people who know people who have seen gray aliens.

Until it hits the market, or someone can present hard physical or photographic evidence, it remains an unknown.

I've had fun with this diatribe, but I think that it's time we move on to more tangible issues. I wish you the best.

[tosvus]

Panasonic didn't do their m43 user-base any favors in moving over. Choosing (probably creating it with Leica in the first place actually) the L-Mount, which has a neither here nor there flange distance, means you can't create an adapter to use m43 lenses with a crop, or use L-lenses with m43 cameras. It seems there was widespread disappointment that they did not do anything to let existing Panasonic users slowly migrate to Full Frame Panasonics.

Of course, to add salt to the wound, they priced the S1R outrageously. It's a bit better now - but by now all the reviewers have pointed out the poor AFC focusing of the Panasonics..

Still, I might get one..

[jdlaing]

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Have they stopped making micro four thirds?

Too expensive?

Reviewers take your pictures for you?

You have no business with these cameras.

[ron777]

1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

Have they stopped making micro four thirds?

Too expensive?

Reviewers take your pictures for you?

You have no business with these cameras.

They, as well as Olympus, are still producing m4/3 cameras.

[jdlaing]

Just now, ron777 said:

They, as well as Olympus, are still producing m4/3 cameras.

I knew that. 😉

[tosvus]

1 hour ago, jdlaing said:

Have they stopped making micro four thirds?

Too expensive?

Reviewers take your pictures for you?

You have no business with these cameras.

A bit defensive, aren't you? Your response doesn't even make any sense. Of course they still have m43 - I have a GH5 & G9. However, me and a lot of other people would like to get into Full Frame video. The new S1H looks amazing but it has the same issue as all other Panasonics - it uses DFD. Yes, there are plenty of filming where you are better off with manual focusing, but there are also plenty of use cases where autofocus is useful.   It's also usually smart to put out an olive branch to your loyal user-base when starting a new system. You can argue it's harder due to going from M43 to L (though I think Panasonic is at fault in the design of that - they have done plenty of legwork for Leica) - than say EF to R mount for Canon, but nevertheless - a much better proposition for Canon users. I have adapted some Canon lenses to my GH5 and G9, but focusing isn't great even with the metabones, so Canon is still on the table for me (if they come out with a body that has IBIS).

..and yes, the S1R in particular was (and to some degree still is) too expensive. It is obviously more for picture taking, and there is plenty of competition in terms of resolution, low light capabilities etc. ..and again, DFD. Not quite as bad for pictures, unless you are into sports etc, but still a disadvantage. The Sony A7R IV is coming out at the same price the S1R did, and trounces it in almost every category. Then you have the A7R III, that will be getting much cheaper, and undercut even the new S1R pricing.

Could I pay $3500 for a camera? Sure. But it's a harder sell when Focusing is blah compared to the competition. Likewise, I would have a hard time buying a Canon, regardless of price unless it gets IBIS.

 

[ron777]

2 hours ago, tosvus said:

Panasonic didn't do their m43 user-base any favors in moving over. Choosing (probably creating it with Leica in the first place actually) the L-Mount, which has a neither here nor there flange distance, means you can't create an adapter to use m43 lenses with a crop, or use L-lenses with m43 cameras. It seems there was widespread disappointment that they did not do anything to let existing Panasonic users slowly migrate to Full Frame Panasonics.

Of course, to add salt to the wound, they priced the S1R outrageously. It's a bit better now - but by now all the reviewers have pointed out the poor AFC focusing of the Panasonics..

Still, I might get one..

I will assume that you do not own a Panasonic S1 or S1R, and that your opinion is based upon those of reviewers.  Personally, while I do not shoot, and have no intention of shooting the S1R—or any other camera for action— I have not encountered any issues, under normal shooting conditions, with the AF/AFC, and that includes poorly lit venues.  If you are motivated, and push hard enough, just about any camera could be forced to fail. 

As for pricing, the initial price of the S1R is/was in the same ballpark as the Sony A7RIV and or A7rIII when it had been released, so, not outrageous.

[tosvus]

8 minutes ago, ron777 said:

I will assume that you do not own a Panasonic S1 or S1R, and that your opinion is based upon those of reviewers.  Personally, while I do not shoot, and have no intention of shooting the S1R—or any other camera for action— I have not encountered any issues, under normal shooting conditions, with the AF/AFC, and that includes poorly lit venues.  If you are motivated, and push hard enough, just about any camera could be forced to fail. 

As for pricing, the initial price of the S1R is/was in the same ballpark as the Sony A7RIV and or A7rIII when it had been released, so, not outrageous.

Yep, the problem is I'm a hybrid shooter, and I'm tired of the bad focusing on the GH5. The S1R seems even worse unfortunately. The difference for me is that the Sonys have both killer features I need (IBIS & great tracking/focusing), plus better low light capabilities and a bit more dynamic range. That said, aside from that the S1R looks like a great camera, and I'm still mulling it over. I might be getting it, but only at a cheaper price - as I don't feel like I'm overpaying. The reason I'm still considering it, is I know they build really nice solid cameras, and I'm used to their menu systems, buttons etc. 

We all have different priorities though - so I get that some people don't see any fuss on the pricing 

Edited August 27, 2019 by tosvus

[ron777]

14 minutes ago, tosvus said:

he Sony A7R IV is coming out at the same price the S1R did, and trounces it in almost every category

Sony still hasn't improved upon its terrible ergonomics.  Sure, they extended the grip a few millimeters, but it still requires the battery grip/extender to make it even marginally comfortable for many of us.  The Panasonic's ergonomics are superior. For me, as a result of the ergonomics and their odd menu system, I will not be upgrading my Sony and will continue to favor the S1R.

 

8 minutes ago, tosvus said:

Yep, the problem is I'm a hybrid shooter, and I'm tired of the bad focusing on the GH5. The S1R seems even worse unfortunately. The difference for me is that the Sonys have both killer features I need (IBIS & great tracking/focusing), plus better low light capabilities and a bit more dynamic range. That said, aside from that the S1R looks like a great camera, and I'm still mulling it over. I might be getting it, but only at a cheaper price - as I don't feel like I'm overpaying. We all have different priorities though

I have a G9 as well as the S1R and have had no issues with focusing.  Although I have no experience with the new A7RIV, the A7RIII's IBIS is terrible, as compared to either of my Panasonics. I must assume, however, that you are an action shooter and, in that regard, I will admit that the Sony's AFC is more effective.  For the types of imaging that I do, Panasonic's approach to AF is more than adequate.  That said, much of what I do requires MF.

As for overpaying, I guess that's a personal decision, as any depreciating acquisition is only worth what it's worth to you. 

Edited August 27, 2019 by ron777

[tosvus]

6 minutes ago, ron777 said:

Sony still hasn't improved upon its terrible ergonomics.  Sure, they extended the grip a few millimeters, but it still requires the battery grip/extender to make it even marginally comfortable for many of us.  The Panasonic's ergonomics are superior. For me, as a result of the ergonomics and their odd menu system, I will not be upgrading my Sony and will continue to favor the S1R.

 

I have a G9 as well as the S1R and have had no issues with focusing.  Although I have no experience with the new A7RIV, the A7RIII's IBIS is terrible, as compared to either of my Panasonics. I must assume, however, that you are an action shooter and, in that regard, I will admit that the Sony's AFC is more effective.  For the types of imaging that I do, Panasonic's approach to AF is more than adequate.  That said, much of what I do requires MF.

As for overpaying, I guess that's a personal decision, as any depreciating acquisition is only worth what it's worth to you.

Absolutely agree in regards to ergonomics. That is why I don't own a Sony yet. I had a Nex 5N back in the day that I abhorred, though it looks better than that at least now. There are also some nice video features the Panasonics tend to have.

Interesting to hear about the IBIS on the Sony - I have heard it mentioned a couple of times, and it is definitely worth considering. It isn't tempting to find OIS lenses to compensate for that either.. 

Thanks for the input, I'll have to await a bit before I decide - I have managed with the GH5 and G9, but just would have liked some improvements in the focusing department. especially for video   I do see some rumors that Panasonic is working on ToF which would be amazing.. I'm kind of feeling it might make sense to wait just one more generation before jumping into FF.

Edited August 27, 2019 by tosvus

[ron777]

You're welcome.  And keep in mind that OIS does not compensate for the absence of IBIS, with the possible exception of long telephoto lenses.

I've been fooled in the past by both negative and positive reviews, and have come to the conclusion that one can only rely upon their own experience.

[tosvus]

5 minutes ago, ron777 said:

You're welcome.  And keep in mind that OIS does not compensate for the absence of IBIS, with the possible exception of long telephoto lenses.

I've been fooled in the past by both negative and positive reviews, and have come to the conclusion that one can only rely upon their own experience.

Thanks - depending on how much I get the itch to get into FF (if sooner rather than later), I might just rent a couple of systems, to give them a fair shake. I already sold off about $4K in camera equipment I don't use much, so it's burning a hole in my pocket lol.

Edited August 27, 2019 by tosvus

[ron777]

Wise decision.

[jdlaing]

3 hours ago, tosvus said:

A bit defensive, aren't you? Your response doesn't even make any sense. Of course they still have m43 - I have a GH5 & G9. However, me and a lot of other people would like to get into Full Frame video. The new S1H looks amazing but it has the same issue as all other Panasonics - it uses DFD. Yes, there are plenty of filming where you are better off with manual focusing, but there are also plenty of use cases where autofocus is useful.   It's also usually smart to put out an olive branch to your loyal user-base when starting a new system. You can argue it's harder due to going from M43 to L (though I think Panasonic is at fault in the design of that - they have done plenty of legwork for Leica) - than say EF to R mount for Canon, but nevertheless - a much better proposition for Canon users. I have adapted some Canon lenses to my GH5 and G9, but focusing isn't great even with the metabones, so Canon is still on the table for me (if they come out with a body that has IBIS).

..and yes, the S1R in particular was (and to some degree still is) too expensive. It is obviously more for picture taking, and there is plenty of competition in terms of resolution, low light capabilities etc. ..and again, DFD. Not quite as bad for pictures, unless you are into sports etc, but still a disadvantage. The Sony A7R IV is coming out at the same price the S1R did, and trounces it in almost every category. Then you have the A7R III, that will be getting much cheaper, and undercut even the new S1R pricing.

Could I pay $3500 for a camera? Sure. But it's a harder sell when Focusing is blah compared to the competition. Likewise, I would have a hard time buying a Canon, regardless of price unless it gets IBIS.

 

I am not overly defensive at all.

For all the things you find wrong and don’t like these cameras are obviously not for you. Find one you like.

I use them for what they are.

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[Stuart Richardson]

I am not sure how the Panasonic S series cameras are selling, but I bought an S1 back in April. I think it is a remarkably good camera. I sold my A7RII after buying it, and very glad to see it go. I still have an A7S around that I use for the lowest of low light, as I have been doing a lot of night video and the resale value of the original model is very low. It is really not much better than the S1. For example, it has maybe a couple of stops advantage in gain in the night, but my body has reddish bloom towards the edge of the sensor when used above ISO 50,000 or so (I film under moonlight for certain projects). The S1 does not have this issue, and also has nicer grain structure. In medium dark conditions (up to say ISO 25600) and brighter, I would give the edge to the S1.

The menu system is far better and easier to understand. The battery life is vastly better as well (though I know that is improved in the newer Sony's). The ergonomics are much better to my mind...it is more solidly built, the VF is better, the stabilization is better, it takes S and M lenses better, it is easier to handle in the dark, the screen does not switch to EVF if you have the screen popped out and bring it close to your body to film at waist level (this drove me nuts while filming on the A7S and RII). The shutter is extremely well damped and nearly silent even when not in E-shutter mode.

Most importantly, however, is that for whatever remarkable reason, the image quality is superb. The color in the natural profile is lovely and understated, the sensor is extremely sharp...sharper than my M10.  There are still a few pet peeves I have, and I still have a lot to learn about the camera, but overall it is one of the best sorted digital cameras I have used. I use it almost exclusively with MF lenses, but when I have tried AF lenses it was even better. I would definitely consider the S1R at some time in the future, especially if the Leica S3 is released at a very high price point.

Edited August 29, 2019 by Stuart Richardson

[scott kirkpatrick]

How are you using the S1 with S lenses?  I understood (perhaps wrongly) that the S to SL adapter was not recognized. Do you use them only in manual focus mode?