Why Are So Few Buying the S1R?

[relms]

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It seems that very few people are buying the S1R and the S1, and I have to wonder why.  There is no accurate way of determining how many units a dealer such as B&H is selling, but the the number of user ratings is generally proportionate to the number of an item sold, and there are only four ratings for the S1R on the B&H website, which is an indicator that they are not selling very many.  In addition, there are four S1Rs listed for sale in their used department at up to a 25% discount.

On the DP Review website a reader survey accompanying their review of the camera shows that 31 have it and 23 had it, indicating a 57% satisfaction rate.  Compare that to the survey related to the Nikon Z7, where 441 have it and 73 had it, an 86% satisfaction rate.  

I own the S1R, and I have been completely happy with it.  It has everything except style that the Leica SL2 should offer when and if we see an SL2, so why are so few people buying it?  It is puzzling to me.

 

[scott kirkpatrick]

I have the S1R.  I don't love the camera's user interface, and some of its operating characteristics are a bit strange but can be mastered with practice.  But the images that it produces with SL lenses are rewarding.  Requiring Leica lenses to get the best out of the camera might be a big disincentive, except to those who have these lenses and don't want to wait for an SL2 to see what they can do with 47 MPx.  Also, the S1R is quite a bit bulkier than the SL or the Nikon mirrorless bodies.  If the SL2 is slimmed down from the SL, I'm interested, but since I don't need 47 MPx very often, the S1R might meet that need.  I'm sure that both will work well with any SL lens.

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[helged]

I also guess the SL lenses are too expensive (and viewed too large/heavy) for many, and therefore S1/S1R remains, as Leica, a niche system. Things may change with more Panasonic and Sigma lenses, particularly cheaper/smaller lenses. I have hardly used the SL after I got the S1R some months ago. I am happy with the S1R with the exception of af on rapidly moving subjects (wildlife), where I rely on Nikon D5/D850. 

[Greg Haag]

Robert, I have wondered the same thing.  I bought the camera for two primary reasons, the hi-res mode and the ability to use my canon tilt shift.  I also bought the 3 native lenses, and honestly I have found them to be very good, including the zoom.  That being said, I find myself using the camera less than I expected, I think because I enjoy shooting with the Leica S so much more.  I do find the menu system a bit cumbersome and in some instances the autofocus really struggles, but I may be part of the problem there by not taking enough time with the camera to work thru it.  I also wonder how much loyalty there is to the Panasonic brand verses some of the more well known, for me personally, the Panasonic would not have been on my radar had it not been for the L mount.

[Donzo98]

I just got one. I bought it for a few reasons... IBIS, brighter EVF, higher resolution. I love mine so far... exactly what I was hoping for. I agree with @relms

I think the sales are slow for a few reasons:

1. Expensive (but not for us Leica NUTS).

2. Big, compared to some other options.. Sony in particular.

3. No reasonably priced lens system built around it yet. The SL is crazy expensive... and if people are buying the Panasonic as their first system, they are not buying SL glass. 

4. The Panasonic name has no real panache in the FF world yet.

I honestly don't see many buying it, unless they are already invested in SL glass.

 

Edited July 27, 2019 by Donzo98

[Jon Warwick]

Greg (or others) - how do you perceive the image quality between the S1R in high res mode, versus your S?

[michali]

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I bought the S1R primarily for wildlife work and am very happy with it, other than still trying to master the AF, as Greg and Helged have also mentioned. I've had the opportunity to take it on a couple of safaris and am pleased with the results. I've also found that I've "bonded" well with this camera, unlike my previous Sony & Fuji systems.

From the outset I viewed the S1R  and it's 47MP sensor as a great platform for my Leica lenses. Not for a minute did I even consider the Panasonic lenses. I even like the fact that it's a big cumbersome camera, which I find balances well with my 2 big Leica zooms, SL24-90mm & SL90-280mm. FWIW I have felt  limited by the lack of a long Leica tele i.e. nothing in the 400mm range for birding, I've since added a Canon 400mm f4 with the Sigma adapter to the arsenal.

I would agree with what's being said here, basically it has limited general appeal unless you're using crazy expensive Leica lenses on it. For many people it's probably "too much camera" for what is presently a rather limited range of affordable lenses. 

Best,

Mike

Edited July 27, 2019 by michali

[Greg Haag]

Jon, I use the high res mode for architectural projects and I have found it to be excellent.  Honestly if I took images of the same subject with equivalent focal lengths I think it would be hard to pick one camera over the other in most instances.  I find the images from the S to be more pleasing to me personally, but not sure I could qualify it for you, and it is completely possible my bias toward medium format prevents me from being objective.  

[Jon Warwick]

Thanks Greg! I’m too looking at using T/S lenses with the S1R - it’s very hard for me (as someone that’s used 5x4 camera with front rise) to accept keystoning of buildings. It just looks dissatisfyingly  sloppy to me when everything is not perfectly lined up!!

[FrozenInTime]

I think you need to be on a mission to carry around the SL or S1/S1R and a L lens. Sigma chose their mission : video.

The large lenses and bodies don’t really encourage the casual photographer to even try one ; consequently the APS-C L-mount deserves more attention from the alliance.

[jrp]

I had the Sony a7rii before the SL and like the S1R’s results but, like the Sony, the S1R is a bit utilitarian, soulless. Perhaps the SL2 will give us both soul and performance, although I suspect that they won’t adopt the most useful S1R feature, ibis, because the heat dissipation requirements would inflate the body size.

As ever, it’s the lenses that seal the deal, and the SL Summicron series are obviously designed for a higher resolution system than is currently available. 

[Danny Burk]

I bought an S1R two weeks ago, as a replacement for my A7RIII. It's intended as my secondary camera (primary is a GFX 50S, which I prefer to use whenever possible); several reasons why I wanted to replace the Sony, but #1 on the list was their stubborn lack of including additional aspect ratios. I'm one who loathes 3:2 and always crop to 4:3 or another ratio, and the S1R's ratios are very similar to those in the GFX.

Anyway, I've not had a chance to do much more than testing so far, but I'm liking it very much. I'll use it almost exclusively with adapted manual lenses, same as I did with the Sony, although I did buy the 24-105 with the body since IMO it's good to have one native lens. I've also got a Sigma 14-24 L-mount on preorder. Otherwise, I'll use a combination of Zeiss and Voigtlander lenses, plus a few older "oddities" with interesting bokeh and rendering. Since it's my secondary camera and I already have a good number of Otus, Milvus, and other high quality lenses, I don't see myself getting into the Leica line.

Edited July 27, 2019 by Danny Burk

[nicci78]

It does not sell well because it may not be good enough.

Too big ? Too expensive ? Bad AF ? Humongous lenses ? Too many buttons ? Nothing special after all ?

Full frame mirrorless is a tough market. Sony already owns it. Leftovers will be split between Canon and Nikon. Last tiny bits of market share will be shared between Leica and Panasonic. 

 

[jrp]

Trouble is that my old Nikon lenses are embarrassing, compared to the new Leica SL lenses. At a price. Sony GM / Zeiss Batis lenses are getting better, but the QA is part of what you are paying for with Leica (which is not to say that there no Leica lemons).

And Sony does appear to be spending R&D 💴 on the sensor at the expense of features such as focus stacking, which will require a more up to date sensor and better soft / firmware engineers than Sony seem to have; the Sony file format remains err problematic. It does, however, have better focusing ability than the Panasonic S1s.

once the Sigma lenses become available, the platform may pick up a bit. 

[jaapv]

As long as nobody knows Panasonic's sales target it is quite impossible to say whether it is selling well or not, even more because the sales numbers are completely unknown...

[tom0511]

I like the S1r. Compared to Nikon Z7 Nikon offers a much smaller body, simpler user interface, faster AF, smaller lenses for less money (which are pretty good as well , 35/1.8 or 50/1.8). So I assume points against the S1r are size, weight and price of lenses, and maybe a complexe user interface.

What I do like about the S1r and SL system is I really love the lenses rendering, I like compatibility with TL lenses, for me the S1r sits very good in hand, has a great EVF, good face detection, high res mode,...

I think a SL2 could have abetter/more simple user interface than the S1/S1r, could be a little smaller, maybe a bit more "Leica color", and maybe feels a bit more classy in regards of materials. For example the back wheel of the s1r turns too easy for my taste and is a little small.

In regards of form factor I really like the S1r , in regards of UI I would like a few more buttons than the SL , but less than the S1r, and the same is true for menues.

I allmost use maybe only 1/2 of the S1r buttons, dont even remember what all the function buttons are for.

 

[HeinzX]

Maybe I will buy a S1r when my SL will be out of function and not repairable at reasonable costs. Because my two native L lenses 24/90 and 90/280 are excellent and can be used with the Sr1 too, as well as my Canon Macro lenses 180 mm, 100 mm and the very special MP-E 65 with an adapter. By the way the Novoflex adapter Canon EF to SL is said to work with the Panasonics too, with exeption of the AF - which is not so important with macro lenses. All depends on that, how the price will be for a coming SL 2. I am not willing to pay a huge premium on the Sr1 for a SL2. Moreover I am using the CL more and more,, sometimes with the L zooms I own  - and the SL less.  The SL is mainly used for indoor photography at home - i.e. table tops and macro. And it is a pity that Leica does not allow the Sigma MC 21 to work with the CL, so that I cannot use my EF lenses together with it in a reasonable way  - which would result in a very nice focal length with the Canon Macro 180 mm . But that is another story, a said and shameful one in  my mind. They claim, that the adapters are not part of the L Alliance agreement. Panasonic in contrary accepts the Sigma MC 21 - thank you Panasonic - not thanks to Leica.

[Danny Burk]

4 hours ago, HeinzX said:

as well as my Canon Macro lenses 180 mm, 100 mm and the very special MP-E 65 with an adapter.

My Canon MP-E 65 is the only lens that I've not been able to use on the S1R. The Sigma adapter won't recognize it, which I suspected may be true since it's also the only lens that the Sigma Canon-Sony adapter wouldn't recognize. It was no problem on the Metabones IV.

Does anyone know if the Novoflex adapter will work? I suspect that Metabones will offer an adapter sometime soon...

[verwackelt]

I think the missing of some compact and cheaper L-mount lenses about ø 2.8 is one of the main reasons why not so many buy the S1 or S1R.
And may be the AF that quality has been badly spoken by the pdaf fans in www...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Jon Warwick]

If it was selling poorly, I’d have assumed that it wouldn’t still be at its”opening” retail price (here in the UK at least) at many dealers.

Given it was announced quite a while back, I’m actually a bit surprised that there aren’t any obvious discounts (at least what that I’ve seen). Is there a normal timeframe when one would think this would kick in?