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Why Are So Few Buying the S1R?


relms

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Usually people start with an entry system of an affordable camera and a cheap lens. Panasonic has no cheap lenses. And Sigma is offering entry zooms for the Sony’s and all other brands but not for Lmount. And this will not change for many months to come. So there is simply no cheap entry offering. So new users prefer Sony or others.

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I suspect Panasonic assumed it would be a slow burner due to the lack of lenses ...... and just hope that Sigma will come to the rescue....  There is no FF Panasonic equivalent to upgrade from and photographers rarely completely change systems unless there is some 'game changing' factor involved, so it is a bit out on a limb at the moment. I used the S1R as an SL upgrade in lieu of Leica's inability to produce anything before I'm too old and decrepit to make use of it. 

Lenses good enough to make full use of the resolution of the S1R do not come cheap ..... and I think that will be the limiting factor for going >50mpx on full frame in the future. 

I'm happy with the S1R and it has managed everything I have thrown at it so far ..... including some grim weather conditions and rough handling. The resulting image quality with Leica SL lenses is well beyond my expectations, so I am unsure I will bother with an SL2 unless it offers something irresistible. 

Paired with the CL it's an excellent go anywhere, do anything combination. 

Edited by thighslapper
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The alliance is a very nice idea. But the partners do not play together well. Especially Sigma, who are usually attractive for offering cheap zooms at very acceptable quality. Normal zooms, but maybe even more attractive their fast tele zooms. But currently there is not a single zoom available for L, but a big selection for all other brands. So Sigma is actually pulling users to other brands. Instead they offer now a tiny camera, which is maybe more interesting for video. And a single smaller lens  (45mm). Maybe this lens is interesting for SL or S1R ...

So I think Sigma is currently a big failure. Their priority is obviously more on other brands/mounts. 

Maybe they will change this later ? Hopefully not too late for L.

Yes there is the MC-21 adaptor. But the functionality is currently poor, not equal to their MC-11 offering. So Sigma is letting the alliance down.

Edited by caissa
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For me the main issue is size and price. The S1R is too big for me. I prefer smaller bodies. Lenses are humongous and too expensive.

If I have to get a camera so big, I'd rather go for the Fuji GFX 50R series.

A Sigma Foveon camera could be interesting though. At least you'd get something different.

 

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5 hours ago, jdlaing said:

I’m curious why you think so few are being sold?

JD:

I have no hard evidence,  simply my deduction from what I am seeing, or not seeing, around the web.   As I stated in my original post, I have no access to statistical information to show how many units are being sold, but the the number of user ratings is generally proportionate to the number of an item sold, whether cameras or coffee makers, and there are only four (now five) ratings for the S1R on the B&H website, Adorama shows only one rating, and Amazon shows six.  As of today, the big three, Adorama, B&H, and Amazon, show a combined total of 38, 12, and 295 user ratings for the S1, S1R, and Nikon Z7, respectively.  That indicates to me that the Z7 is outselling the S1/S1R by a huge margin.  

In addition, I find relatively little discussion about the S1/S1R on this and other forums.  I shoot with the S1R almost exclusively, and I am pleased with most everything about it, and that is why I am puzzled by the lack of interest (read sales) regarding these cameras.  

Best,
Robert

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1 hour ago, relms said:

JD:

I have no hard evidence,  simply my deduction from what I am seeing, or not seeing, around the web.   As I stated in my original post, I have no access to statistical information to show how many units are being sold, but the the number of user ratings is generally proportionate to the number of an item sold, whether cameras or coffee makers, and there are only four (now five) ratings for the S1R on the B&H website, Adorama shows only one rating, and Amazon shows six.  As of today, the big three, Adorama, B&H, and Amazon, show a combined total of 38, 12, and 295 user ratings for the S1, S1R, and Nikon Z7, respectively.  That indicates to me that the Z7 is outselling the S1/S1R by a huge margin.  

In addition, I find relatively little discussion about the S1/S1R on this and other forums.  I shoot with the S1R almost exclusively, and I am pleased with most everything about it, and that is why I am puzzled by the lack of interest (read sales) regarding these cameras.  

Best,
Robert

You and I (and other LUF groupies) are the perfect customers for the S1R... 

1. We can afford it.

2. We already invested in the best SL glass.

3. We had an SL... the S1R is basically an upgrade to that.

4. We don’t see the S1R as expensive, compared to Leica.

”Normal” people don’t fit our profile. 

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That's an early adopter scenario that makes perfect sense to me.  And on Panasonic's scale it doesn't generate a large market.  But look at how Panasonic became the most successful of the 4/3 and Micro 4/3 producers.  They survived well there by putting out the widest range of models, some favoring still and some favoring video, and updating models rapidly.  Olympus is still selling the E-M1, with various minor upgrades (because it was an excellent design to start with).  And Olympus put out some excellent lenses, still as good as any shipped in the subsequent 5-6 years.  I'm not Thom Hogan, so I have no idea if either company made money in this.  It will be interesting to see if Panasonic gets their AF and IS to be instant and more accurate in the next two or three models.  That will be the time to ask if anyone's buying them.

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My opinion is a combination of he many great points shared and another one. I feel like I read that this was a low volume product but I found it weird that it wasn’t really sold out for months driving additional buzz.

With so many players entering the FF market many, like myself, are holding still to see what shakes out. My primary digital system right now is Sony but I shot Leica M Digital in the past. There are many enticing features about the Panasonic cameras that were absent from the SL. The press is positive overall but somewhat mixed as well. People talk about how large and heavy it is but that’s relative. Limited affordable native lenses doesn’t help either. I imagine once the roadmap is updated,  once a permanent price cut comes, and once the cameras get in more hands it’ll be seen as more commercially successful. 

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Am ‎28‎.‎07‎.‎2019 um 15:40 schrieb Danny Burk:

My Canon MP-E 65 is the only lens that I've not been able to use on the S1R. The Sigma adapter won't recognize it, which I suspected may be true since it's also the only lens that the Sigma Canon-Sony adapter wouldn't recognize. It was no problem on the Metabones IV.

Does anyone know if the Novoflex adapter will work? I suspect that Metabones will offer an adapter sometime soon...

If the MP-E 5 does not work at all with the Sigma adapter, you can try , what I do to make it work with my CL. I use an thumb adapter from Canon EF to Leica M (from Fotodiox) together with an adapter from Leica M to Leica L (from Novoflex). This is not ideal, because it is not possible to change the aperture, but this adapters are not very costly and it is possible to use the lens on the CL. In my opinion that way should work with the Panas too.The better way of course would be to use the SL adapter from Novoflex - but I do not know, if it will work together with this lens on the Panas.

 

Edited by HeinzX
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I‘m sure we will see a more compact version added, like a S1X.

In comparison to Sonys first A7, Panasonics first full frame camera does not have any big flaws. Lenses will come, so this system should be a success for Panasonic, but it will take time.

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Let's also not forget what a big market Asia is, we have no idea how the S1 & S1R are  selling there. Take HUAWEI as an example, they're the 2nd largest smartphone producer in the world after Samsung and ahead of Apple, most of their sales are in Asia. 

 

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On 7/30/2019 at 10:08 AM, Konqi said:

I‘m sure we will see a more compact version added, like a S1X.

In comparison to Sonys first A7, Panasonics first full frame camera does not have any big flaws. Lenses will come, so this system should be a success for Panasonic, but it will take time.

Why would anyone want to compare S1R to a six years old Sony A7? Of course I get the point that both are first generation bodies for the manufacturer, but that it totally irrelevant for anyone wanting to buy a FF mirrorless camera now. Also, when Sony A7 was announced the market was totally different. Sony was the first and the only one. They had a bigger margin for errors for their first products. S1R will be competing with Nikon, Canon and CURRENT Sony offerings and of course with the other Alliance members. It is much harder to gain market share than it was six years ago -regardless of how good the body is.

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Am 29.7.2019 um 10:33 schrieb thighslapper:

I suspect Panasonic assumed it would be a slow burner due to the lack of lenses ...... and just hope that Sigma will come to the rescue....  There is no FF Panasonic equivalent to upgrade from and photographers rarely completely change systems unless there is some 'game changing' factor involved, so it is a bit out on a limb at the moment. I used the S1R as an SL upgrade in lieu of Leica's inability to produce anything before I'm too old and decrepit to make use of it. 

Lenses good enough to make full use of the resolution of the S1R do not come cheap ..... and I think that will be the limiting factor for going >50mpx on full frame in the future. 

I'm happy with the S1R and it has managed everything I have thrown at it so far ..... including some grim weather conditions and rough handling. The resulting image quality with Leica SL lenses is well beyond my expectations, so I am unsure I will bother with an SL2 unless it offers something irresistible. 

Paired with the CL it's an excellent go anywhere, do anything combination. 

Many people around the world know Leica and admire Leica lenses and cameras - and therfore Leica must be big. But Leica is actually a very small company. I grew up very close to Solms and Wetzlar k. By the way, Leica offers guided tours through the Leitz park, if you would like to. Lenses and cameras are "pre-manufactured" in Protugal, though.

Development cycles in the mirrorless sector have gotten extremely fast with new models every two years or so. R&D cost are tremendous. Besides financial ressources, manpower is needed.Dr. Kaufmann admitted that once himself-regarding the future of the SL system. The cooperation with Panasonic helps Leica a lot, but it is still a huge effort to keep up with compynies like Canon, Nikon, Sony and their own partner Panasonic.

 I am very curious about the SL2. However, it might also be possible we do not see an SL2 at all if Leica needs to prioritize and allocate ressources accordingly.  You surely agree, thatLeica has done a great job with the new SL lenses, especially the Summicrons SL. It took time, but in my opinion it is incredible that such a small company with limited ressources could develop class leading products. In fact, they did it again. If you think some years back, the Summilux-M 50mm or the APO Summicron-M 50mm were similarly far ahead of the competition. In fact, there is still today no such optical performance in such a small package like the APO Summicron-M .    

 

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2 hours ago, ron777 said:

 

There may be a bump up in sales in the near future ... there is a $700 rebate on the S1r and $300 for the S1.

Any link ? Or is it meant to be worldwide ? (In Switzerland the prices are extremely high, much higher than in neighbour countries. I wonder what thoughts they had when they decided this. The same is also valid for the new L-mount lenses from Sigma. So sales will probably be very low in Switzerland, because everybody buys from abroad.)

Edited by caissa
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59 minutes ago, caissa said:

Any link ? Or is it meant to be worldwide ? (In Switzerland the prices are extremely high, much higher than in neighbour countries. I wonder what thoughts they had when they decided this. The same is also valid for the new L-mount lenses from Sigma. So sales will probably be very low in Switzerland, because everybody buys from abroad.)

Adorama sent me an email, but I would guess that B&h will follow suit as it is likely a Panasonic rebate.

P.S. B&H has the same rebate listed 

Edited by ron777
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Here's the link to B&H and their instant rebate offer:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=panasonic%20s1r&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search=

If I hadn't already committed to the purchase of a Fuji GFX100 I would order a second S1r body. But if Panasonic follows the path of other manufactures who have presented similar rebate offers on relatively new cameras,  the offer will likely be time sensitive.

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