007 vs Hassy x1-D

[dritz]

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4 hours ago, John Smith said:

I think the images of the S system are softer than the SL2, probably because of the sensor/flange distance. That is one reason I decided to move from the S to the SL2. Now, if Leica came out with a mirrorless S4 . . . .  

Isn't the sensor/flange distance the same for the S body as the SL+S adapter?

I am sold on the EVF. The S autofocus isn't so good, so the SL EVF gives me better results than my S007 ever did. Which is why my choice is limited to make use of the S lenses (when perfection is needed) and M and R lenses for more Mandler magic. The GFX100S is overkill. For me, 35MP is ample resolution and I don't care for the 3x4 ratio... confining!

[Jeff S]

45 minutes ago, aksclix said:

I’ll print if I click something I really like.. what’s the biggest you’ve printed with an S006? I have not printed anything larger than 24x36 and that was with D600/D810

I only demo-ed an S006 for a couple of weeks, eventually buying the SL2.  But the latter won out for reasons related to usability (ISO, handhold-ability, lack of great zooms, etc), not because the S lacked anything in file or print quality.  I print with a 17 inch printer and prefer modest print sizes.  

Jeff

[John Smith]

3 hours ago, helged said:

This is exactly the reason that I actually prefer S over SL(2). I dont think the sensors are too different, but the lenses are somewhat different. Whereas SL-lenses represent modern optical perfection,  S-lenses have a little (older) Mandler-magic mixed into the equation. Both are excellent, but with differences.

Is there such a thing as too sharp? Some think so. I let go of the S, but took some of the money and bought a 75mm Noctilux. Best of all worlds. EVF, which I prefer over the OVF (WYSWYG is wonderful) and a sharp but analogish look. If Leica somehow replicated the Noctiluxes with an S4 I’d have to get another 3 or 4 jobs.

[ZHNL]

1 hour ago, John Smith said:

Is there such a thing as too sharp? Some think so. I let go of the S, but took some of the money and bought a 75mm Noctilux. Best of all worlds. EVF, which I prefer over the OVF (WYSWYG is wonderful) and a sharp but analogish look. If Leica somehow replicated the Noctiluxes with an S4 I’d have to get another 3 or 4 jobs.

Yes, there is. Too sharp is an aberration as well per Nikon’s lens designer  I actually believe it based on my preference. Sharp could from over correct Sphere aberration, POP could means sacrifice focus transition and out of focus quality.  A simple demo is over applying sharpening on your file, you get sharper impression but may not be a good thing for background rendering and overall look of images. 

as far as I can see here, Leica S glasses have special cinematic rendering that I don’t see in FF glasses. This is rare quality, though not on paper. That and real manual focus ring are two reason keep me in S without regrets. S006 has great pixel level quality actually though it does have false color.
 

SL2 for me is a bridge product with in Leica family. It is really for adapting M and S glasses and using non OEM AF zoom and prime for AF convenience. I do use it for landscape a lot for its pixel quality and high resolution mode. With IBIS, it is a lot easier to use in field than S. S is the most enjoyable system for me, however it also needs most attention at the same time. Not an easy use system, especially with modern standard. 
 

100s is size, IBIS and real 16bit file. The best part is 4X3 and adapt FF glasses on it. It is .7X converter that speed my glass by one stop for that frame ratio. I can also use S glasses on it shoot wide open and enjoy IBIS as well. 

[helged]

6 hours ago, ZHNL said:

I can also use S glasses on it shoot wide open and enjoy IBIS as well. 

For curiosity - which adapter? 

[helged]

8 hours ago, John Smith said:

Is there such a thing as too sharp? Some think so. I let go of the S, but took some of the money and bought a 75mm Noctilux. Best of all worlds. EVF, which I prefer over the OVF (WYSWYG is wonderful) and a sharp but analogish look. If Leica somehow replicated the Noctiluxes with an S4 I’d have to get another 3 or 4 jobs.

Depends on the eyes that see, and what you want to see. The opposite to 'too sharp' is certainly the case. Personally & quite often, I like a touch of 75Lux-M to the photos, something that is pretty much lacking from the SL-lenses, but that the S-lenses have. All personal preferences and interpretations, clearly. 

[Sarnian]

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30 minutes ago, helged said:

For curiosity - which adapter? 

I'm also curious...

[Stuart Richardson]

The only adapter I am aware of is the Fotodiox one, which does not reach infinity. I asked them about that, and it sounded like it was a manufacturing mistake, as there is ample room to make an adapter that can reach infinity. I asked them if they would fix it, and they said they would have to sell those first. My thought was, why would anyone buy one if it cannot focus to infinity?

[Stuart Richardson]

I should say as well, that you do not necessarily have to shoot it wide open if you have an S or SL body. If you stop down the lens to the aperture you want to use (either stop down, bulb or a long timed exposure), if you remove the lens when it is stopped down, it will stay at that aperture. So you could set it at f4 or 5.6 etc if you wanted to use it at a sharper aperture, you just need to have an L mount body with an S to L adapter or an S body around. It is not particularly convenient, but it is workable for specific scenarios. Of course, best of all would be a functional electronic adapter.

Edited February 28, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[ZHNL]

4 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The only adapter I am aware of is the Fotodiox one, which does not reach infinity. I asked them about that, and it sounded like it was a manufacturing mistake, as there is ample room to make an adapter that can reach infinity. I asked them if they would fix it, and they said they would have to sell those first. My thought was, why would anyone buy one if it cannot focus to infinity?

My 35/70/24 couldn’t reach infinity. Both 100 and 120 can.

why? Because this is the only solution I can use S glass and take advantage of GFX 4/3 ratio and class leading DR and high ISO and advantage of tilt LCD and EVF for EVF shots. Because it is cheap enough that can be throw away. Because that is big part of my use with S glasses anyway when I am not travel: Wide open, non infinity shots. S006 is a slow camera that require you wide open daily use. That is the most user case for me. 007 has a lot wider user range but at low light the AF suck so was my manual focus. GFX helps. 
 

this is obviously not a real solution but offer a different experience for awesome S glasses I have. Even they reach infinity, it is still a compromise that you can’t really control aperture in field without S or SL body. I would rather take two S body or a Sl than this anyway. in studio you can, then infinity reach is not important again. For merely 100ish bucks. I am happy. 
 

I am waiting a S mirrorless or an adapter can adapt Fuji or future Hasselblad X camera. S glasses are the best for me years back, they still are. 

Edited February 28, 2021 by ZHNL

[alan.y]

1 hour ago, ZHNL said:

My 35/70/24 couldn’t reach infinity. Both 100 and 120 can.

Interesting. So the tolerance is just very slightly off and Fotodiox didn't bother fixing it for three years (or didn't sell enough of the first batch ever to make a second). Their inexpensive adapters are generally manufactured to loose standards, but usually it's the other way round (focus beyond infinity).

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by alan.y

[ZHNL]

1 hour ago, alan.y said:

Interesting. So the tolerance is just very slightly off and Fotodiox didn't bother fixing it for three years (or didn't sell enough of the first batch ever to make a second). Their inexpensive adapters are generally manufactured to loose standards, but usually it's the other way round (focus beyond infinity).

 

The quality is poor as always. I will not buy their product ever if I have choice. I can’t even remove the tripod foot but I can’t bare to have it using manual focus so I just forced use screw removing tool to get rid of it. 
 

I wouldn’t complain though as it is only one allow me to do so. It meets its function. I emailed novoflex but they just totally ignored me. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Hi again. I did not mean to criticize you for buying it. Not at all. I also think that if it is the only choice, it makes sense, especially since it is inexpensive. I just meant that it is frustrating that Fotodiox knew that they had made an error, and instead of fixing it, they just wanted to sell it anyway. And of course, who would buy one if they expected that it might be fixed? It is just strange to sell something you know is broken when it is completely in your power to fix it. How can someone complain there is no market for an adapter when the adapter is broken to begin with. I certainly would have bought one if I had a GFX to use it on, assuming they made one that focused to infinity. It is interesting to note that the longer lenses worked, just not the short ones....

 

Edited February 28, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[ZHNL]

31 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Hi again. I did not mean to criticize you for buying it. Not at all. I also think that if it is the only choice, it makes sense, especially since it is inexpensive. I just meant that it is frustrating that Fotodiox knew that they had made an error, and instead of fixing it, they just wanted to sell it anyway. And of course, who would buy one if they expected that it might be fixed? It is just strange to sell something you know is broken when it is completely in your power to fix it. How can someone complain there is no market for an adapter when the adapter is broken to begin with. I certainly would have bought one if I had a GFX to use it on, assuming they made one that focused to infinity. It is interesting to note that the longer lenses worked, just not the short ones....

 

No worry! I understand all you said. I didn’t make it big deal because of reason you just listed. I think it might still help some if with right expectation. 

Fododiox is a frustrating company TBH.  I hope FUJI or Hassy can do an adapter like Leica did with contax and  Hasselblad, this would be nice. I don’t mind wait for S mirrorless though.  It seems for sure a fate for S system. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Yes. I think the challenge is that Leica had very expensive lenses and was very confident in them being better than any other lenses that would fit, so they could make the adapters and not worry about losing too many lens sales. I think Fuji and Hasselblad have no incentive to make adapters, as their lenses are cheaper and the Leica might cause them to lose some sales. At the time, Leica offered the adapters to make it easier to get into the system. I think Fuji and Hasselblad are not as worried about that, as the people buying their bodies will be able to afford most of the lenses already. I think if we get an adapter, it will be third party. There is a chance that it might not even be for the S lenses, but for the L lenses. If they make a functioning L mount adapter, then the S to L adapter might allow the S lenses to be used on the body. I think this is unlikely though, since the L mount is new and fully electronic.

[ZHNL]

5 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Yes. I think the challenge is that Leica had very expensive lenses and was very confident in them being better than any other lenses that would fit, so they could make the adapters and not worry about losing too many lens sales. I think Fuji and Hasselblad have no incentive to make adapters, as their lenses are cheaper and the Leica might cause them to lose some sales. At the time, Leica offered the adapters to make it easier to get into the system. I think Fuji and Hasselblad are not as worried about that, as the people buying their bodies will be able to afford most of the lenses already. I think if we get an adapter, it will be third party. There is a chance that it might not even be for the S lenses, but for the L lenses. If they make a functioning L mount adapter, then the S to L adapter might allow the S lenses to be used on the body. I think this is unlikely though, since the L mount is new and fully electronic.

Adapt L lens will be difficult given the flange distance and size of Mount. I think it only possible with Nikon Z and canon R but so far. I only see  a smart adapt between MILC is adapting Sony E for Nikon Z Mount. 

[ZHNL]

5 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Yes. I think the challenge is that Leica had very expensive lenses and was very confident in them being better than any other lenses that would fit, so they could make the adapters and not worry about losing too many lens sales. I think Fuji and Hasselblad have no incentive to make adapters, as their lenses are cheaper and the Leica might cause them to lose some sales. At the time, Leica offered the adapters to make it easier to get into the system. I think Fuji and Hasselblad are not as worried about that, as the people buying their bodies will be able to afford most of the lenses already. I think if we get an adapter, it will be third party. There is a chance that it might not even be for the S lenses, but for the L lenses. If they make a functioning L mount adapter, then the S to L adapter might allow the S lenses to be used on the body. I think this is unlikely though, since the L mount is new and fully electronic.

Adapt L lens will be difficult given the flange distance and size of Mount. I think it only possible with Nikon Z and canon R but so far. I only see  a smart adapt between MILC is adapting Sony E for Nikon Z Mount. 

[plasticman]

Here's a quick-take on using the Hasselblad for just a week - probably not adding anything new, but in case anyone is jumping onboard with the original X1D at this late stage, now the prices are at least not stratospheric any longer.

Slow startup. This is a common complaint, and I find what I do is press the startup button while reaching for the camera, instead of while raising it to my eye. For me this is no big deal - I don't do 'reportage' or sports, just landscape type stuff, or family pictures, so I haven't missed any shots yet. You can also keep the camera in sleep mode - it wakes instantly - so I guess the issue is fixed by that - I just haven't needed to use it.

Autofocus slowness. I'm 100% used to manual focus lenses nowadays, so using the autofocus felt kinda weird for me. Luckily the 45P I bought to go with the camera is really easy to manual focus. I just set to zoom-with-focus, and I can focus by eye in a fraction of a second - and this probably really saves battery use... which is the next common complaint.

Battery use. By manual focussing I seem to be really saving on battery, because after walking around with the camera for a whole day I appear to have 3/4 of battery power left. I'm not taking so many shots, so maybe if I was on vacation or shooting intensively the batteries would eat up faster? I plan to get another battery anyway, and also the dual fast-charger, but they are both hard to find at the moment (which was also the case with lenses incidentally).

All in all the camera is REALLY nice to use. Reminds me strongly of Leica digital in use - especially when manually focussing - because there's really no interface in your way when using the camera. Also everything is super-well constructed and solid.

Having become accustomed to film the last few years I'm not sure what to think about the images just yet. I have a feeling that they can make the photographer into a detail-junkie, because the sheer amount of captured information is mind-blowing. I took a test shot from a hill overlooking my kid's school and the surrounding houses to the horizon, and then spent hours poring over the details that are visible a kilometer away: a door-handle seen through a window, or some flowers in a vase, or a coat hanging on a balcony almost further than the human eye can see. 
This is also true of images of people. Taking a snapshot of the kids gives you a hyper-real representation - the color is really natural (especially using Phocus) and then zooming-in on the image shows the soft, invisible down that even a 9-year old has on their face - something my naked eye has never noticed. Definitely do not want anyone to take my photograph with this camera.

But obviously I'm conflicted about whether hyper-realism is desirable in photography. I guess it has its place, and right now I'm thinking that if I need a digital camera, it may as well capture as much detail and dynamic range as possible - these are things that can be taken away, but never added afterwards.

The 45P is a lovely lens when corrected - it vignettes a bit otherwise. Again when using Phocus the corrections make it perfect, and it really has nice out-of-focus falloff for what would seem like a slow maximum aperture (ƒ4). Amazing lens - super-sharp, nice bokeh and very compact.

So that's how I feel about the Hasselbald after a week anyway. We'll see how long my enthusiasm for a digital camera can last - but so far I'm super-impressed, and if it's detail, rich natural color, wide dynamic range, and hyper-real 3D rendering, then the X1D is still a great camera in 2021.

[BernardC]

17 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

It is interesting to note that the longer lenses worked, just not the short ones....

That's normal. If an adapter is off by 1mm (which would be a huge amount), that's 1% for a 100mm lens, but 4% for a 25mm. AF lenses focus "past infinity" by design, so 1% tolerance may be close enough on a longer lens, but 4% is too much for a shorter focal length.

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[Sarnian]

On 2/26/2021 at 9:03 AM, Sarnian said:

 The 006 for $2,495 (with an engraving on the top plate - which isn't the 100-year special edition, so I don't know what it was for) hasn't had a new sensor fitted. 

Here's the answer from Leica:-

The Leica S 006 is part of Leica S Summicron 100 Edition.

https://en.leica-camera.com/World-of-Leica/Leica-News/Global/2014/Leica-S-Summicron-100-Edition

I see that this special edition 006 has sold since I posted about it.