007 vs Hassy x1-D

[Dsauro]

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Hi all

i see the Vieri has just uploaded his review of the X1-D. As you all know he moved from Leica to Hasselblad.  I love my 007 and the image quality  I get and produce on print.  His review is glowing regarding the X1-D but also includes some wish list items for upgrades.  My thread  is not a knock on Leica, rather asked of those who have had the experience of using both systems 

With the seemingly halt on the future s lens line development, compared to continuing hassy lens development, pluses and minuses between the two ecosystems, etc., has anyone either switched to The X1-D from the S 007, or from the X1-D to the S 007, and what is your impression,  pro or con between the two.  Looking for folks who have actually printed from both systems not just viewing  on screen.  My question is really what is the final conclusion on image quality between the two if you have had the opportunity to experience both 

thanks 

 

[Milan_S]

I was a big S fan from the beginning having used the S2 up to the S007. I love the feel of the body, the long battery life, the gorgeous files and of course the sharpness of rendering of the lenses. The S system was unique and Leica was a pioneer to bring a portable weatherproof medium format system. But times have changed, the most frustrating for me was the slow and sloppy AF. I use the S for portrait and fashion work and often the S misfocusses on the eye the AF is too slow even with modeling light. Although most S users rave about the OVF, I hoped the S3 would be a mirrorless update, a Leica SL on steroids with a great EVF (so I could manual focus the S lenses in lower light) but Leica decided to keep the S as it is a big DSLR with a MP and sensor upgrade. A few months ago I bought the Hasselblad X1D system to use parallel with my the S system.

I took the X1D with me to Cuba and I never missed the S, the AF is faster also in lower light, the camera is much lighter, the files are flexible and the colors of the X1D are out of this world. 

I am thinking to let go of the S007 because I miss the future proof direction of the S and the X1D is in my opinion the perfect replacement of the S007. As you said I feel the S as we know it is in the end of the cycle. The focus of Leica is on the SL and it's lenses not on the S system... I love the S 100mm f2 but it was slow focusing and never accurate to get it 100% to focus on the eye. I have the 45mm and the 90mm XCD lenses and they fulfill my needs, but I might add the 80mm f1.9 later because of DOF. 

One of my last professional work with the S007 

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[mgrayson3]

I used an S(006), then an (007) as my main cameras for years. I have all the S lenses (except the 30, for some reason). I prefer the output of the S to anything - on balance. I switched to the X1D for most work due to its size and weight advantage. I find the OOC files less appealing, but that has the upside that I am forced to make them what I want, instead of just admiring the beautiful Leica S rendition and staying close to that.

But still, an X1D and three lenses weighs less than an S(007) and 24mm lens (my workhorse). I wish there was a 24mm XCD, but I'm getting used to 21mm and 30mm. I have no interest in the XCD 120 or 135, as at that point, the weight goes up and I already have the (superb) Leica 120 and 180 lenses.

I've had a show with large prints from the Leica S, Leica Q, X1D, and an Olympus µ43. The Q and Oly are definitely less crisp, but the X1D and S prints are distinguished only by their aspect ratios.

X1D/45mm

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S/24mm

Matt

Edited May 26, 2019 by mgrayson3

[Dsauro]

Thank you for your reply.   It’s exciting times!   The S3 is intriguing but it appears to be a curtain cal in light if your comment ( and I agree!) the emphasis of the SL line.

how has your experience been with the UI of the X1-D?  I am primarily a landscape shooter, so a more slow and methodical approach to set up is not as concerning as a street shooter...or portrait shooter.... for that fact :) 

[mgrayson3]

23 minutes ago, Dsauro said:

Thank you for your reply.   It’s exciting times!   The S3 is intriguing but it appears to be a curtain cal in light if your comment ( and I agree!) the emphasis of the SL line.

how has your experience been with the UI of the X1-D?  I am primarily a landscape shooter, so a more slow and methodical approach to set up is not as concerning as a street shooter...or portrait shooter.... for that fact :) 

My experience echos Vieri's and others. The X1D UI is very nice, and the camera speed is seldom a problem. I prefer to compose on the LCD and seldom use the EVF, so the short exit time from Live View is sometimes annoying, but it is now overcome almost unconsciously. Mind you, the S is still my favorite, but you have to remember where things live on both cameras, and switching between them can be confusing.

As for the S3? Well, we'll have to wait and see the released version. Small changes can make a big difference. 

Edited May 26, 2019 by mgrayson3

[Stuart Richardson]

I do not own the X1D, but I have used it and I just finished an MFA program where one of my colleagues was shooting with it, so I have spent time with his, as well as spent the time since it came out looking at his files. The output seems excellent. The color is nice, and the sharpness great. I liked the look of the camera and the interface. It all seemed very good. What I could not handle was the shutter delay (or perceived delay...) and the general sense of slowness. I am not sure how much it has been improved with firmware since I used it, but at the time I found it quite disruptive. I also did not really like the EVF...I do not really like any of them though, even the Panasonic S1 I am using, so that's just a personal thing.

If you are looking for a camera now though, you should really give a look to the Fuji GFX100 if you have not already. It looks to be an exceptional camera. I worked a bit with the Fuji GFX50S and much preferred it to the X1D, as ungainly as it is.

[xiaubauu2009]

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X1D is really an unfinished or badly specs product. I suggest wait for the X2D for the 100mp sensor and better software. 

[Photon42]

I did look at the X1D twice. It still feels like an android based computer with sensor and lens mount to me. Its looks a gorgeous however and image quality is really nothing to complain. Interestingly, the S cameras drive HC lenses with AF and aperture stop down with the respective adapter. The X1D only does that with the latest HC lenses (new Firmware required does not fit the limited memory in the older lenses). In my experience the X1D focusses slower, but has tons of focus points. It ls also much lighter - this partly also extends to the lenses.

The S in my eyes at the moment has the following advantages:

• Overall faster operation
• Widest array of AF lenses (including HC and Contax lenses)
• Two different shutters
• Specifically the FP shutter allows for adapting a lot of different MF lenses
• Comparably faster lenses

All that comes at the cost of bad resale value and size and weight. I do hope however there will be a proper successor of the X1D.

[Jeff S]

Interesting how individual priorities and preferences vary.  I couldn’t compare the S and X1D without highlighting the OVF vs EVF distinction (handholding as my preferred method). But then I still haven’t gotten comfortable with any EVF, even after testing the top end SL. I’m hoping that changes eventually, as the potential advantages are clear.  I at least hope the next generation X1D has a better EVF.  On the other hand, 50MP would be more than enough for me, but I think that ship may have sailed.

And to answer the OP, based on my limited testing (a week with the S006 and X1D), both fit into my print workflow and are capable of superb results if I do my job well.  IQ for me isn’t limited much any more when comparing top end systems (with same or similar format size), particularly at my moderate print sizes. Other differences... lens line, viewing and focusing system, control interface, ergonomics, reliability, etc... tend to be bigger factors.

Jeff

Edited May 29, 2019 by Jeff S

[tom0511]

I have owned the S2/S006 and then S007. About a year ago I added a x1d mainly for size reasons.

There are some things one has to get used to (slow start up, black.out during taking the image, and a funny shutter noise) but overall I really like the x1d. First it is very portable, also you draw less attention, for me the ergonomics are very good. Compared to the S being able to move the AF point is a real plus, and the AF is more precise than that of my S.

The Hassy lenses are very good IME (I have used 21,30,45,90), but I would say the Leica S lenses have an even smoother rendering and less vignetting.

I understand if you switch because you want a smaller camera and lenses, or if you are frustrated about AF accurancy or service.

But I dont understand the discussion about Leica not releasing new S lenses. As of today there is a pretty complete lens lineup available, except maybe more TS lenses. You allready own everything. Switching is expensive.

For me (non pro) I use the x1d more often and might get out of S system and rather use the x1d and for fast things the SL-system (mixed with Pana)

[xiaubauu2009]

9 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Interesting how individual priorities and preferences vary.  I couldn’t compare the S and X1D without highlighting the OVF vs EVF distinction (handholding as my preferred method). But then I still haven’t gotten comfortable with any EVF, even after testing the top end SL. I’m hoping that changes eventually, as the potential advantages are clear.  I at least hope the next generation X1D has a better EVF.  On the other hand, 50MP would be more than enough for me, but I think that ship may have sailed.

And to answer the OP, based on my limited testing (a week with the S006 and X1D), both fit into my print workflow and are capable of superb results if I do my job well.  IQ for me isn’t limited much any more when comparing top end systems (with same or similar format size), particularly at my moderate print sizes. Other differences... lens line, viewing and focusing system, control interface, ergonomics, reliability, etc... tend to be bigger factors.

Jeff

Oh, the End Game has a 5mil EVF, said to be very good... Let's hope it kind of limit the pain of losing the OVF....

[Jeff S]

59 minutes ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

Oh, the End Game has a 5mil EVF, said to be very good... Let's hope it kind of limit the pain of losing the OVF....

I’m no optical engineer, but just like camera IQ distinctions, there seems more to it than resolution (which can be overemphasized). Characteristics like dynamic range, performance in bright daylight and at night, and so forth.  I hope there’s still room for a more ‘natural’ look.. contrast, color, etc...under varied lighting conditions.  And great execution in terms of display options.  I’m sure I could adapt to any of the current higher end EVFs, but I’m hoping for even more progress.

Jeff

[LeicaR10]

Dsauro,  I personally own(ed) and use(d) for my professional landscape image work the Leica S2, 006 and 007, plus the X1-D and Fuji systems.  I found my clients voted overwhelmingly with their wallets for images that I create with the S system.  I found myself selling both the X1-D and Fuji systems simply because my clients and companies that buy my images didn't like the rendering or feeling.  When I hike short distances for my landscapes, I take the S007 and several S lenses (age is a factor).   But for long-distance hikes to remote locations, I pack and carry my M10-P system and a few lenses that I feel will meet my creative needs.  Your genre of photography and preference for image rendering is a personal choice.  For me and clients who purchase my images, they prefer my work with the Leica S or M systems.  I find photographers who spend a lot of time dwelling on what camera to own might well be better off being concerned with creating photographs the make a person stop, look, think and perhaps feel, that moment in time they are attempting to capture.  To me, the photograph that can do this is what photography is all about...not the number of MPs or the latest model of camera.  r/ Mark

[xiaubauu2009]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

I’m no optical engineer, but just like camera IQ distinctions, there seems more to it than resolution (which can be overemphasized). Characteristics like dynamic range, performance in bright daylight and at night, and so forth.  I hope there’s still room for a more ‘natural’ look.. contrast, color, etc...under varied lighting conditions.  And great execution in terms of display options.  I’m sure I could adapt to any of the current higher end EVFs, but I’m hoping for even more progress.

Jeff

Judging from the SL 4mil resolution evf, it's good enough. As long as the hz is high, and the resolution is high, I think it's good.... 

[Photon42]

14 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Interesting how individual priorities and preferences vary.  I couldn’t compare the S and X1D without highlighting the OVF vs EVF distinction (handholding as my preferred method). But then I still haven’t gotten comfortable with any EVF, even after testing the top end SL. I’m hoping that changes eventually, as the potential advantages are clear.  I at least hope the next generation X1D has a better EVF.  On the other hand, 50MP would be more than enough for me, but I think that ship may have sailed.

And to answer the OP, based on my limited testing (a week with the S006 and X1D), both fit into my print workflow and are capable of superb results if I do my job well.  IQ for me isn’t limited much any more when comparing top end systems (with same or similar format size), particularly at my moderate print sizes. Other differences... lens line, viewing and focusing system, control interface, ergonomics, reliability, etc... tend to be bigger factors.

Jeff

Cannot agree more. Must be somewhat easy to get lost as a product manager without a really clear initial frame and list of general priorities. Leica for example seems to put IQ on top for their cameras, which sometimes can be a tad annoying (close focus aperture on the Q changes, long exposure limitations ...).

Regarding the EVF / OVF thing: I personally can do with both, as long as I can actually use it with acceptable limitations. As I bought a Nikon FM2 new, I still have a sweet spot for OVFs and specifically do have zero issues that Leica did not add an EVF. However, I would the X1D finder acceptable (in my limited testing). A pleasure to use it is not. YMMV.

[dave.gt]

4 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

Dsauro,  I personally own(ed) and use(d) for my professional landscape image work the Leica S2, 006 and 007, plus the X1-D and Fuji systems.  I found my clients voted overwhelmingly with their wallets for images that I create with the S system.  I found myself selling both the X1-D and Fuji systems simply because my clients and companies that buy my images didn't like the rendering or feeling.  When I hike short distances for my landscapes, I take the S007 and several S lenses (age is a factor).   But for long-distance hikes to remote locations, I pack and carry my M10-P system and a few lenses that I feel will meet my creative needs.  Your genre of photography and preference for image rendering is a personal choice.  For me and clients who purchase my images, they prefer my work with the Leica S or M systems.  I find photographers who spend a lot of time dwelling on what camera to own might well be better off being concerned with creating photographs the make a person stop, look, think and perhaps feel, that moment in time they are attempting to capture.  To me, the photograph that can do this is what photography is all about...not the number of MPs or the latest model of camera.  r/ Mark

Well, it's about time to hear from the silence a voice of honesty, and an individual mind. Thank you for your comments!

Mark, I believe we have a lot in common and I think a lot of us who are not part of the group-think and prevalent gear trends are silenced by the sheer noise of gear mania. And that is unfortunate.

There are few who want to be seen as contrary or not part of the crowd, but I have been that way all my life. Personally, I don't care what anyone uses to create their art. Unfortunately, there are many who don't consider their photography as art. However, they march to their own music as well.

Just as the film v digital war still rages, gear wars are even worse it seems. My full-time exposure to Medium Fornat is only a few years, but I have found that I much prefer MF whether it be film or digital. My use of the H5D-50c has amazed me and my clients have appreciated the results as well. 

Gear selection is a personal thing with many ways to look at it. My preferences have nothing to do with smaller size and lighter weight. If I want snapshots, I always used my M or X1. But I appreciate, and prefer the quality and feel of heavier instruments like the M vs. lighter gear and I am delighted with the size, weight, quality, simplicity and results of both the S cameras and the H system. I am sure Phase One would be on my preferential gear list if I could afford even a used one.

Everyone is different of course. For me, at the end of the day, did my gear provide me an experience, including gear aesthetics,  that was pleasurable and did the results meet my expectations? My film cameras always have. 

The H system and the S system both fit my preferences like a well-tailored suit and are as comfortable as a favorite pair of jeans to me. And, the results always astonish me.

Thanks again for your comments.!

 

 

Edited May 30, 2019 by dave.gt

[LeicaR10]

Dave.gt,   Thank you for your comments.  We do share the same ideas and thoughts about photography and gear.  I learned an important lesson when I first started out in photography way back when I was at the university.  I started as a photo major, but the professor taught me two important lessons.  The first, he told the class if you think you are going to get a job with a Fine Arts degree in Photography...find a different degree.  He was right, I dropped the major and got a degree in remote sensing and engineering.  Second and perhaps the most important lesson while taking the class, we all were prohibited from using our Nikons, Canons etc., and buy instead a $5.00 Holga camera that used 120mm roll film.  We had to shoot our entire portfolio with that camera, develop, print and display the images with a theme throughout, plus turn in all the negatives to match our prints.  What I learned, it is not the expensive camera that created the images...it was our mind, vision, imagination, inspiration and ability to create using a $5.00 plastic camera as a tool and our skills in developing and printing the images.  As I grew in my later years into a professional landscape photographer, I always treat my cameras as tools; for me...simple is best as it always comes down to shutter speed and aperture...just like the $5.00 plastic Holga camera.  The rest is gravy...most buttons, features are never used or needed.  Same goes for the number of MPs...more MPs in reality mean little.  It is the image, print and what you are attempting to convey in that moment in time.   Yes, the optics and rendering are factors in creating your image...but for me, it is a personal choice.   As I mentioned before, my greatest lesson and thoughts about photography and a photograph...a great photograph is one IMO is one that makes a person stop, look, think and feel....with feeling the most difficult aspect of the photograph to convey relative to a moment in time.  Master these ideals and IMO, one can separate a mere photo to that being most excellent and great photograph.   r/ Mark

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

Dave.gt,   Thank you for your comments.  We do share the same ideas and thoughts about photography and gear.  I learned an important lesson when I first started out in photography way back when I was at the university.  I started as a photo major, but the professor taught me two important lessons.  The first, he told the class if you think you are going to get a job with a Fine Arts degree in Photography...find a different degree.  He was right, I dropped the major and got a degree in remote sensing and engineering.  Second and perhaps the most important lesson while taking the class, we all were prohibited from using our Nikons, Canons etc., and buy instead a $5.00 Holga camera that used 120mm roll film.  We had to shoot our entire portfolio with that camera, develop, print and display the images with a theme throughout, plus turn in all the negatives to match our prints.  What I learned, it is not the expensive camera that created the images...it was our mind, vision, imagination, inspiration and ability to create using a $5.00 plastic camera as a tool and our skills in developing and printing the images.  As I grew in my later years into a professional landscape photographer, I always treat my cameras as tools; for me...simple is best as it always comes down to shutter speed and aperture...just like the $5.00 plastic Holga camera.  The rest is gravy...most buttons, features are never used or needed.  Same goes for the number of MPs...more MPs in reality mean little.  It is the image, print and what you are attempting to convey in that moment in time.   Yes, the optics and rendering are factors in creating your image...but for me, it is a personal choice.   As I mentioned before, my greatest lesson and thoughts about photography and a photograph...a great photograph is one IMO is one that makes a person stop, look, think and feel....with feeling the most difficult aspect of the photograph to convey relative to a moment in time.  Master these ideals and IMO, one can separate a mere photo to that being most excellent and great photograph.   r/ Mark

I appreciate your story, as many points resonate.  So please take this question in that context.  If a Holga can suffice, why do you think that you couldn’t please your clients sufficiently with prints from your X1D or Fuji? What lacked that you couldn’t fix?

Jeff

[LeicaR10]

Jeff S,  Your question is a good one.  Perhaps the $5.00 Holga would suffice for my clients. For me, the Holga in my early young life, taught me creativity, vision and basic photographic skills were more important than an expensive camera.  Unfortunately the Holga did have some limitations, like the faulty plastic lens that would fall out on occasion, a set f/8 stop and 2 shutter speeds (one I created by drilling the lens so I could make long exposures with the shutter).  To answer your question about the Holga....I might just go buy one, as I might find my clients like the Holga landscape images because the way the unique plastic lens renders.  Great idea...thanks!  As for the Fuji and X1D, my clients simply didn't like how the images rendered.  When I asked, my multiple clients would tell me they liked the image color, "look" and "feeling" much better with the Leica images.  Client personal preferences are a driving factor for me as I found my Leica images sell and my X1D and Fuji images didn't sell any where near as well.  Other photographers who use the X1D and Fuji might well have far different results.  What my landscape images lacked taken with the X1D and Fuji systems, I fixed the problem by selling the systems and went back to the Leica S and M systems as my clients always vote with their wallets.       r/ Mark

PS  I always enjoy reading your insightful comments.

Edited May 30, 2019 by LeicaR10

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[dave.gt]

Hmmm.., I should do the same... but a Holga. Or a Polaroid.

it has been a long time.:)