007 vs Hassy x1-D

[Stuart Richardson]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

To be clear, I find no fault with Sarnian, but current lenses that have a retail price in the 5-12 thousand dollar range to sell for such a fraction indicates that there is almost no demand. I know that the Leica stores in Berlin and Copenhagen don’t want S gear and have heard from people trying to sell that you basically can’t do it for any reasonable price. I think the only thing that can salvage the system from a commercial standpoint is somehow opening up the use of the lenses to non-Leica cameras (like the GFX and Hasselblad, for example) or to have a more modern camera available. This is not a criticism of the S itself, just a reflection of the current market. 

[John McMaster]

I suspect that many S users have all the lenses they need (rather than want), starting afresh without ever using an S most people would look at Fuji or the X1D...

john

[mgrayson3]

Concerning commercial viability - one's S equipment, like all equipment, is worth its market price. If you liked the lenses at 3x the current price, you should like them more now. The past can't be changed.

So what about support? If you had a Canon or Sony system, new bodies and upgraded lenses to match them keep coming out. You are constantly replacing your system - or continuing with what you have and works for you. But that is the same as continuing with the S. If the Fuji or Hassy does something you actually like better, and the price of moving is worth it *today*. Then great. I'm glad I kept all my S gear because after spending serious time with the other two systems, I ended up keeping only the S.

[Jon Warwick]

Having a camera system that I personally felt, rightly or wrongly, that I could sell easily, if needed, was probably the primary reason for me not getting involved in the S 007.

For example, if I had a S 007 but wanted one day to get an S3, I always wondered if I could I readily sell the former at a decent price?

That was despite the price of a used S 007 + 70mm Summarit being really very attractive (given what the camera offers) vs what I paid for a new SL2 + SL APO! 

But I've seen quite a few S cameras and lenses simply sitting there in some UK stores (in some examples, for years), a phenomena that I simply don't see for either the M or SL.  It's a shame.  I'm not entirely sure why it's occurred ....the lenses are fantastic, the camera handling is super, and the body punches above its weight for just a 37mp camera with attractive rendering.

But as I (finally!) move into medium format digital, I'm getting the GFX100S, with pre-order done; and yes, if there was any way the S lenses could be used on that slightly larger sensor, I'd 100% be there looking at what I could pick up in terms of Leica S lenses via an adapter because I do like the way they gently render.   

Edited February 9, 2021 by Jon Warwick

[mgrayson3]

10 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

Having a camera system that I personally felt, rightly or wrongly, that I could sell easily, if needed, was probably the primary reason for me not getting involved in the S 007.

For example, if I had a S 007 but wanted one day to get an S3, I always wondered if I could I readily sell the former at a decent price?

That was despite the price of a used S 007 + 70mm Summarit being really very attractive (given what the camera offers) vs what I paid for a new SL2 + SL APO! 

But I've seen quite a few S cameras and lenses simply sitting there in some UK stores (in some examples, for years), a phenomena that I simply don't see for either the M or SL.  It's a shame.  I'm not entirely sure why it's occurred ....the lenses are fantastic, and considering the body punches above its weight for just a 37mp camera with nice rendering.

But as I (finally!) move into medium format digital, I'm getting the GFX100S, with pre-order done; and yes, if there was any way the S lenses could be used on that slightly larger sensor, I'd 100% be there looking at what I could pick up in terms of Leica S lenses via an adapter because I do like the way they gently render.   

I have a GFX 100 on consignment. I would have done much better to take the lower trade-in value in November, because now that the 100S has been announced, NO ONE wants one. Don't think it only happens to Leica gear!

[aksclix]

I got a bit lucky... I sold my gfx 50r in December and bought a gfx 100, then realized 100s was due to hit the market end of Jan.. thanks to the extended holiday return policy I was able to return the GFX 100 and preorder the 100s. I hope they do ship mine by 2nd week of March. I ordered mine minutes after they were added to the site. I am now without a gfx body! But that’s alright, I haven’t shot anything meaningful since lockdown and I have a few other camera systems anyway! 

[Jon Warwick]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

It's a interesting point, and yes, I think the GFX100S is keenly priced, not just against other digital medium format ..... but also against its own very similar spec'd products!  The latter was the bigger surprise to me, I'd expected them to maintain a larger differential in specs than they did between the GFX100S vs GFX100 to justify the former being that much lower in price.

 

 

[Stuart Richardson]

2 hours ago, mgrayson3 said:

Concerning commercial viability - one's S equipment, like all equipment, is worth its market price. If you liked the lenses at 3x the current price, you should like them more now. The past can't be changed.

 

The break in this is that the market price and the retail price are utterly opposed. My opinion of the lenses has not changed, but the fact remains that if you paid 12.000 dollars for a lens and can now sell it for 3000 dollars, that is not a great place to be. It is certainly not a great place to be for Leica. For example, someone would have to be very cash insensitive indeed to buy a new Leica S lens in 2021, when a mint used copy from a dealer might cost 8000 dollars lens than the new lens. The S3 is another story, since it is brand new, but as most people indicated, it was not really attractive to most new users. Perhaps if the S lenses in generally had a lower retail (closer to SL pricing) and the S system as a whole was reduced in price and they put out a mirrorless S. But at this point it is such a hard bargain to anyone without VERY specific tastes/needs. Basically people who are already in the system, or people who want a larger than full frame DSLR, but do not want one as big or slow handling as a Phase One or Hasselblad.

[aksclix]

9 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The break in this is that the market price and the retail price are utterly opposed. My opinion of the lenses has not changed, but the fact remains that if you paid 12.000 dollars for a lens and can now sell it for 3000 dollars, that is not a great place to be. It is certainly not a great place to be for Leica. For example, someone would have to be very cash insensitive indeed to buy a new Leica S lens in 2021, when a mint used copy from a dealer might cost 8000 dollars lens than the new lens. The S3 is another story, since it is brand new, but as most people indicated, it was not really attractive to most new users. Perhaps if the S lenses in generally had a lower retail (closer to SL pricing) and the S system as a whole was reduced in price and they put out a mirrorless S. But at this point it is such a hard bargain to anyone without VERY specific tastes/needs. Basically people who are already in the system, or people who want a larger than full frame DSLR, but do not want one as big or slow handling as a Phase One or Hasselblad.

Unless the gear was stolen by the seller in the first place.. like in this video that happened 2 days ago here in San Francisco.. watch from 1:12

 

Edited February 9, 2021 by aksclix

[Stuart Richardson]

While that video is shocking, I am not sure what it has to do with anything here. The Leica lens prices are super low because very few people are buying S gear, not because of theft. This looks like that person knew what they were looking for or had watched and followed that car...seems odd to be just a random theft.

[aksclix]

5 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

While that video is shocking, I am not sure what it has to do with anything here. The Leica lens prices are super low because very few people are buying S gear, not because of theft. This looks like that person knew what they were looking for or had watched and followed that car...seems odd to be just a random theft.

oh, I was trying to say that people sell stolen gear at a much lower price for a quick sale too.. anyway, I hear you loud and clear and I am aware S system is at cross roads.. which is kinda why I had started that topic about where S4 should be headed. I am not an S user (had it for a few days ended up returning it) but have had interest since buying the SL2, been noticing the indifferent pricing in the used market.. it all makes sense because it's not "current" generation and even the last iteration S3 doesn't seem like a great upgrade from S007

about the robbery, they were apparently followed from wherever they were doing their real-state photo job 

 

[alan.y]

A video like that posted on another platform will ignite a political shouting match with lots of whataboutism thrown about.

Also it's very appropriately 2020-2021 that it was taken by a Tesla owner while "driving on autopilot." Recently deified Elon makes you a crimefighter without you even trying.

 

[plasticman]

Bought an X1D from a store in Germany. Thanks to the members in this thread for their advice and help. 

[aksclix]

I see several 007s warming the shelves for months.. X1D I or II both seem to get sold as soon as they hit the shelves provided they’re reasonably priced 

it looks like the used 007 would sell a lot more if they were priced between 3-4K max including sales tax! The handful who need the S already have it.. it’s very unfortunate but the market today seems to have become ruthless 

Edited February 25, 2021 by aksclix

[plasticman]

14 hours ago, aksclix said:

I see several 007s warming the shelves for months.. X1D I or II both seem to get sold as soon as they hit the shelves provided they’re reasonably priced 

it looks like the used 007 would sell a lot more if they were priced between 3-4K max including sales tax! The handful who need the S already have it.. it’s very unfortunate but the market today seems to have become ruthless 

I think the appeal of the X1D is that it's a nice all-round camera for travel and general shooting, rather than anything specifically wrong with the 007. The X1D is still pretty expensive though, and prices are a very broad range, but it's very compact for a 'medium format' digital - especially with the 45P - and I think the form-factor gives it a wider appeal, now the prices have fallen from their astronomic start.

[Sarnian]

Camera West have lots of 007's and a couple of 006's (which are also on their eBay page). The 006 selling for $1,995 has a new sensor as I just asked Leica. The 006 for $2,495 (with an engraving on the top plate - which isn't the 100-year special edition, so I don't know what it was for) hasn't had a new sensor fitted. Just passing this on if anyone is interested.

[aksclix]

6 hours ago, Sarnian said:

Camera West have lots of 007's and a couple of 006's (which are also on their eBay page). The 006 selling for $1,995 has a new sensor as I just asked Leica. The 006 for $2,495 (with an engraving on the top plate - which isn't the 100-year special edition, so I don't know what it was for) hasn't had a new sensor fitted. Just passing this on if anyone is interested.

Yea.. they’ve had the 007s for over 7 months t least. Recently they slashed $1000 off all of them.. 006s are recent additions which are also marked lower although they don’t come with chargers 

[aksclix]

6 hours ago, plasticman said:

I think the appeal of the X1D is that it's a nice all-round camera for travel and general shooting, rather than anything specifically wrong with the 007. The X1D is still pretty expensive though, and prices are a very broad range, but it's very compact for a 'medium format' digital - especially with the 45P - and I think the form-factor gives it a wider appeal, now the prices have fallen from their astronomic start.

Apart from the form factor, it’s the steep prices despite the heavy discount.. 

[ZHNL]

14 hours ago, Sarnian said:

Camera West have lots of 007's and a couple of 006's (which are also on their eBay page). The 006 selling for $1,995 has a new sensor as I just asked Leica. The 006 for $2,495 (with an engraving on the top plate - which isn't the 100-year special edition, so I don't know what it was for) hasn't had a new sensor fitted. Just passing this on if anyone is interested.

These are incredible bargains compare what we will get.
 

let’s see 2k get you what? A new Sony, canon or Nikon mass market fast prime? Not even cheapest M glass LOL

None of current system even remotely approaching S006’s base ISO quality include 007, X1Dii and GFX50S.(I had/have them all  and preordered gfx100s) I am shocking to see Leica sell S short themselves. The system is really for people having good eyes know what to see and look for.

I have to say S is sad story for modern world that chasing paper specs but it is one of best bargain you can get from anywhere. Ordered “another” 006. I will use them until they are all die. 2-3k is peanuts in modern days, especially consider none offer remotely close to it for glasses quality and OVF shooting. SH! 
 

Hi Leica, if you listen, pay more attention to S than SL. Make it great again  Mirrorless S!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Sarnian]

To quote Charles Dickens: It was the best of times, it was the worst of times. It certainly is the "best of times" for current S users who wish to pick up some S lenses for really good prices. These lenses will hold their own for years to come. On the flipside, it certainly is the "worst of times" for S users who wish to cash out. 

Because - and only because - the prices of second-hand S lenses have decreased so much I now have my dream set-up of S lenses: 24mm, 30-90mm and 120mm Macro. These cover every shooting scenario that I would reasonably find myself in. (The 70mm CS that I bought just recently I sold on to help fund the purchase of a second-hand 007). 

Edited February 26, 2021 by Sarnian