Q2 EVF - Degraded resolution when taking photo/video (live view)

[kyriacos]

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Hi all, i thought i'd start a new thread about this strange behavior i noticed with the Q2 EVF. 

Another member on the forum Krusty also noticed the same behavior and luckily after lots of scouring on the forum i found the post. 

I went ahead and created a new thread since the conversation right now is buried under (Q2 47 mps, Dirt & Drip proof & new EVF (FWIW!) - https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/293968-q2-47-mps-dirt-drip-proof-new-evf-fwiw/) and i doubt a lot of people will look at it since it's the thread back when the original announcement was made.

Here's the thing, during live view (photo or video) mode the EVF resolution appears to be degraded. The fonts and exposure scale are blurry/pixelated and so does the image if you look closely. At first i thought its my eyes playing tricks on me.

My second thought was that Leica might degrade the image after 45mins (yes i couldn't put down the camera) so it prevents overheating or something like that.

Since i went in the next day to trade in all my camera gear (for the Q2 heh) i tried the camera. It hadn't been used for a while and again the image and fonts were blurry.

Krusty, just got his own Q2 today and says it's the same as the display models so that kind of removed my assumption that maybe the display models are earlier hardware iterations or have different firmware. He also figured out that when in Playback mode all the fonts and image in the EVF appears crisp and sharp as it should, so that probably means that Leica is indeed degrading the resolution when in live view (taking a photo/video). Possibly to keep the refresh rate high? Luckily that also means they can probably fix it with a firmware upgrade.

Fact is all the reviews out there rave about the EVF quality and there is no mention of this. (Note: didn't check out Reid Reviews).

So the question is, did anyone else notice this? Maybe someone who owns a Q2 or has access to one can chime in?

Maybe the reviewers had different firmware version or hardware? Once you see it unfortunately you can't unsee it.

 

And lastly with all that, i am eagerly awaiting my Q2 😊. Pretty low on the waiting list unfortunately. Traded-in all my gear including an M240 and Fuji XPro-2 for it.

FYI by live view i mean normal shooting mode.

FYI i added quoted posts from Krusty as a a partial reference to what was said in the other thread.

 

Thanks!

Kyriacos

 

Krusty -  "Hi all,  i was in the L store today and had a look at the Q2. Suprisingly the viewfinder of the Q2 was a little bit blurry and not completely sharp. Compared the Q1 viewfinder was much sharper and clear! The Q2 had Firmware 1.0. There were moiree effects, and the focus peaking was also strange. 

Does anybody have both cameras or know, what this issue could be?

maybe it was a q2 prototype or the firmware will improve this?"

Krusty - "the first persons in the German Q2 forum agree, that they see the blur / Antialiasing / interpolation effect on the viewfinder as well... Just focus to very thin vertical lines, or do a 6x focus peaking or check the numbers and the plus and minus of the exposure correction Scala.... And then compare it to the Q1... maybe the the Q2s viewfinder has a better contrast etc. but it is definitely not as sharp as the Q1 viewfinder. Just test it!"

Krusty - "UPDATE **** I found out, that the viewfinder is only Blurry, when it is in Live-View / Photography Mode... When you switch to Play-Mode it is completely sharp. You can easily see it, when you look at the exposure correction scala or at the exposure time value. You both see this objects in capture and in play mode. In play mode these objects and the image itself is completely sharp and has the same quality as the Q1"

Krusty - "I checked it at the Q2 in the store and since today I have a Q2 and it is the same."

Edited March 18, 2019 by kyriacos
fixed the spacing... oops

[Krusty]

Hi, 

I just changed from DNG+L-JPG (47MP) to M-JPG (24MP) only, but there is no difference... but this is what I expected, because changed megapixel and file-format happens after I press the Shutter.

[Krusty]

Viewfinder blurry might be the better title for this thread.

[Donzo98]

How blurry is it??? This is quite concerning... 

i have the CL and had the original Q. Not an issue on either of those cameras.

 

[Donzo98]

What about DNG ONLY???

[Leica Guy]

I’m yet to actually see a Q2, but this does seem concerning. Would a  lower resolution live view make manual focusing more difficult? Is that the case for those of you with Q2’s. Thanks. 

The good news is I expect a sw change could remedy this. It sounds like an EVF update tradeoff design decision. 

[SrMi]

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I just got my Q2. The EVF is excellent. Nothing is blurry when running Q2 on default settings.

[kyriacos]

13 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I just got my Q2. The EVF is excellent. Nothing is blurry when running Q2 on default settings.

Thanks SrMi.

So the fonts (the display info - i.e. scale & other info) at the bottom of the screen are pin sharp? And if you switch and view a photo in the EVF is there a difference between the rendering of the letters in shooting mode vs playback mode?

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by kyriacos

[kyriacos]

4 hours ago, iQ2 (formerly Infiniumguy) said:

I’m yet to actually see a Q2, but this does seem concerning. Would a  lower resolution live view make manual focusing more difficult? Is that the case for those of you with Q2’s. Thanks. 

The good news is I expect a sw change could remedy this. It sounds like an EVF update tradeoff design decision. 

It's great for manual focus, no issues. The EVF is great, it's mostly the font rendering that is pixelated and it's just something that is noticeable if you see it once. Degrading the performance of the EVF is something most camera manufacturers do when in shooting mode to keep the refresh rate high but they manage not to affect the display information so it's not as apparent.

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, kyriacos said:

Thanks SrMi.

So the fonts (the display info - i.e. scale & other info) at the bottom of the screen are pin sharp? And if you switch and view a photo in the EVF is there a difference between the rendering of the letters in shooting mode vs playback mode?

 

Yes, they are pin sharp, but there is a difference when compared to Q. In EVF, the letters and numbers seem to use the font without aliasing, i.e., you see font rasterization more on Q2 than on Q. It has no impact on the shooting experience. No difference visible on LCD.

[dancook]

I just had a look on my Q2, it was hard to notice - but I shot an image at 1/125th and kept it on 1/125th - paying close attention to the 2, I could see the aliasing of the diagonal stroke on the live view, but not the picture review.

Edited March 19, 2019 by dancook

[SrMi]

3 minutes ago, dancook said:

I just had a look on my Q2, it was hard to notice - but I shot an image at 1/125th and kept it on 1/125th - and the diagonal stroke of the 2 was more aliased on the 'live view' than the picture review

Yes, you have to look hard to notice it. The EVF does not have degraded resolution as the title suggest.

[Donzo98]

30 minutes ago, dancook said:

I just had a look on my Q2, it was hard to notice - but I shot an image at 1/125th and kept it on 1/125th - paying close attention to the 2, I could see the aliasing of the diagonal stroke on the live view, but not the picture review.

So... is it only the display info?? Not the image??

[Krusty]

No, it is also visible in the picture as well...

[Donzo98]

2 minutes ago, Krusty said:

No, it is also visible in the picture as well...

Trying to get an idea... is it significant?? As in blurry??

[SrMi]

 

1 minute ago, Krusty said:

No, it is also visible in the picture as well...

I cannot confirm that. Looking at sharp edges, I do not see any issues. Anyone else sees issues in the EVF resolution of the image?

What I can see is slight moire when focusing (very brief in AF-S). Many cameras with high-resolution sensors (GFX 50S, some Sonys) reduce temporarily the resolution of the sensor in order to focus faster. I guess Q2 does it as well.

[RMT52]

21 hours ago, kyriacos said:

Hi all, i thought i'd start a new thread about this strange behavior i noticed with the Q2 EVF. 

Another member on the forum Krusty also noticed the same behavior and luckily after lots of scouring on the forum i found the post. 

I went ahead and created a new thread since the conversation right now is buried under (Q2 47 mps, Dirt & Drip proof & new EVF (FWIW!) - https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/293968-q2-47-mps-dirt-drip-proof-new-evf-fwiw/) and i doubt a lot of people will look at it since it's the thread back when the original announcement was made.

Here's the thing, during live view (photo or video) mode the EVF resolution appears to be degraded. The fonts and exposure scale are blurry/pixelated and so does the image if you look closely. At first i thought its my eyes playing tricks on me.

My second thought was that Leica might degrade the image after 45mins (yes i couldn't put down the camera) so it prevents overheating or something like that.

Since i went in the next day to trade in all my camera gear (for the Q2 heh) i tried the camera. It hadn't been used for a while and again the image and fonts were blurry.

Krusty, just got his own Q2 today and says it's the same as the display models so that kind of removed my assumption that maybe the display models are earlier hardware iterations or have different firmware. He also figured out that when in Playback mode all the fonts and image in the EVF appears crisp and sharp as it should, so that probably means that Leica is indeed degrading the resolution when in live view (taking a photo/video). Possibly to keep the refresh rate high? Luckily that also means they can probably fix it with a firmware upgrade.

Fact is all the reviews out there rave about the EVF quality and there is no mention of this. (Note: didn't check out Reid Reviews).

So the question is, did anyone else notice this? Maybe someone who owns a Q2 or has access to one can chime in?

Maybe the reviewers had different firmware version or hardware? Once you see it unfortunately you can't unsee it.

 

And lastly with all that, i am eagerly awaiting my Q2 😊. Pretty low on the waiting list unfortunately. Traded-in all my gear including an M240 and Fuji XPro-2 for it.

FYI by live view i mean normal shooting mode.

FYI i added quoted posts from Krusty as a a partial reference to what was said in the other thread.

 

Thanks!

Kyriacos

 

Krusty -  "Hi all,  i was in the L store today and had a look at the Q2. Suprisingly the viewfinder of the Q2 was a little bit blurry and not completely sharp. Compared the Q1 viewfinder was much sharper and clear! The Q2 had Firmware 1.0. There were moiree effects, and the focus peaking was also strange. 

Does anybody have both cameras or know, what this issue could be?

maybe it was a q2 prototype or the firmware will improve this?"

Krusty - "the first persons in the German Q2 forum agree, that they see the blur / Antialiasing / interpolation effect on the viewfinder as well... Just focus to very thin vertical lines, or do a 6x focus peaking or check the numbers and the plus and minus of the exposure correction Scala.... And then compare it to the Q1... maybe the the Q2s viewfinder has a better contrast etc. but it is definitely not as sharp as the Q1 viewfinder. Just test it!"

Krusty - "UPDATE **** I found out, that the viewfinder is only Blurry, when it is in Live-View / Photography Mode... When you switch to Play-Mode it is completely sharp. You can easily see it, when you look at the exposure correction scala or at the exposure time value. You both see this objects in capture and in play mode. In play mode these objects and the image itself is completely sharp and has the same quality as the Q1"

Krusty - "I checked it at the Q2 in the store and since today I have a Q2 and it is the same."

I noticed this too. Thought it was odd.

[kyriacos]

2 hours ago, Donzo98 said:

Trying to get an idea... is it significant?? As in blurry??

I wouldn't worry about it as much. I noticed it after using the camera for 45mins and decided to play around with the EVF settings. Since i was paying attention to the EVF i saw the display info as SrMi said appearing without aliasing. Don't think it's a problem since you don't stare at the EVF as much. It would be better if there anti-aliasing was there.

As for the image it could be moire as i noticed that when the contrast was hard and there was a lot of back light.

 

[kyriacos]

3 hours ago, dancook said:

I just had a look on my Q2, it was hard to notice - but I shot an image at 1/125th and kept it on 1/125th - paying close attention to the 2, I could see the aliasing of the diagonal stroke on the live view, but not the picture review.

Thanks for checking! 

Btw, thanks for posting those tests shots with the Q2.

Edited March 19, 2019 by kyriacos

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[kyriacos]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

Yes, they are pin sharp, but there is a difference when compared to Q. In EVF, the letters and numbers seem to use the font without aliasing, i.e., you see font rasterization more on Q2 than on Q. It has no impact on the shooting experience. No difference visible on LCD.

"Rasterization" - thanks :). That's the word i was looking for.

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

Yes, you have to look hard to notice it. The EVF does not have degraded resolution as the title suggest.

I wasn't sure what to title the topic. I thought if i said 'blurry' then it would elude to the diopter.

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

 

I cannot confirm that. Looking at sharp edges, I do not see any issues. Anyone else sees issues in the EVF resolution of the image?

What I can see is slight moire when focusing (very brief in AF-S). Many cameras with high-resolution sensors (GFX 50S, some Sonys) reduce temporarily the resolution of the sensor in order to focus faster. I guess Q2 does it as well.

That's kind of why i said degrading the resolution. Maybe it's done to achieve focus faster or a faster refresh rate. Sorry wasn't too sure how to describe what i noticed.

Thanks again for having another look. I appreciate it.

 

Edited March 19, 2019 by kyriacos