Is the S1/S1R a good backup camera for SL

[Chaemono]

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb caissa:

An interesting new option (new for Leica users) is the 6K photo mode. (up to 30 frames/s at 18 MP)...There is even a pre-burst mode, for those who fear missing the beginning. I think this is even more useful than AFc (for me). This could be a way to make even sports photographers like Leica lenses.

What? With the lens stopped down all the way? How about wide open? What good is 6K photo mode if one doesn’t acquire focus to begin with?

[caissa]

6k Mode explained. On a older camera but basically the same.  https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-gh5-6k-photo-mode-explained/

[caissa]

High res images of studio test scene (S1R and S1; 187 and 96 MP).  https://www.dpreview.com/articles/3528119869/panasonic-lumix-s1-s1r-studio-scenes-with-high-res-mode-published

[caissa]

After the technical details, a different view, from a higher level. I cannot say how realistic this is. But maybe interesting.  https://www.eoshd.com/2019/05/full-frame-rival-sales-figures-grim-reading-for-everyone-vs-sony/

Edited May 15, 2019 by caissa

[Chaemono]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb caissa:

6k Mode explained. On a older camera but basically the same.  https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-gh5-6k-photo-mode-explained/

Thank you. Quote from the text you linked “6K Pre-Burst mode is useful for short bursts of action because it only records for 2 seconds. However, the camera starts scanning the moment it’s active and it records the 30 images from the 1 second prior to you pressing the shutter button as well as the 30 from the 1 second after you pressed it.”

Question - how the heck does the camera know when I’m going to press the shutter to start recording 1 second prior? Prescient mode? 🤨

[Bob Andersson]

Maybe a half press doesn't count as a full press. Just guessing?

"Prescient Mode" - love it. Should trademark that one! 🤣

[Joakim]

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1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Thank you. Quote from the text you linked “6K Pre-Burst mode is useful for short bursts of action because it only records for 2 seconds. However, the camera starts scanning the moment it’s active and it records the 30 images from the 1 second prior to you pressing the shutter button as well as the 30 from the 1 second after you pressed it.”

Question - how the heck does the camera know when I’m going to press the shutter to start recording 1 second prior? Prescient mode? 🤨

You are not shooting stills, you are shooting video and then stills are extracted from the video stream once you press the shutter so that's how they can "go back" in time

[Chaemono]

vor 42 Minuten schrieb Joakim:

You are not shooting stills, you are shooting video and then stills are extracted from the video stream once you press the shutter so that's how they can "go back" in time

Thank you. ‘Scan’ actually means recording video and ‘recording’ means extracting stills.

vor einer Stunde schrieb Bob Andersson:

"Prescient Mode" - love it. Should trademark that one! 🤣

+1. The Lumix bodies do have AI so it could be possible. Although, I expect the α7R IV to come with it. Sony needs to top Panasonic. 

[Stuart Richardson]

On 5/8/2019 at 5:02 PM, ivohula said:

Let's take this thread back to the start and my question which I believe has not been clearly answered.

As far as the Panasonics go for being a back-up for a M series body what is the news? What is the consensus about use of Leica M mount lenses on the S1 and S1R? I know that 6 bit code is not recorded by them as it is on the SL.

The main issue for me is picture quality. Is there any smearing in the corners with the wide Summiluxes on the Panasonics? There probably is very little difference in the >50mm lens range, but has anyone done any testing with the WATE, MATE, and the 21mm, 24mm and 35 mm Summis? It appears that Steve Huff thinks M lenses work great, but he has used Voigtlander lenses. The Panasonic sensor seems great, but how is the sensor glass for the M lenses? Will sensor glass replacement be done on these bodies, as was the case on the Sonys?

Hi there. I am using the S1 with M and S lenses. The M lenses mostly work well, but not the wides that I have. The 25mm Biogon and 18mm Biogon that I have both have substantial smearing, and I would not use them except in exceptional circumstances. On the other hand the 35mm 1.4 Summilux is very good stopped down, and really not so bad when wider open. It seems a lot better on the Panasonic than the Sony was. I would use it wide open for portraits or night work where I was not too bothered about the edges. But in general it is ok. The 50mm Summilux ASPH seems to be a little worse wide open, but it is still quite usable at regular apertures. The 75mm Summilux and Summicron are good, (well, the summilux is soft wide open, but it always is. It gets much better by 2.5), and the 90mm and 135mm lenses I tried are great. The S lenses all work great, though are of course big and heavy by comparison, and do not autofocus (they do communicate otherwise).

In general, if you were going to switch to the S1 and don't mind manual focus, you could be well served by using M lenses over 50mm and perhaps the 16-35mm zoom. I do not shoot wider than 35mm very often, so I will not be buying one, but for those that do, it seems like a good idea.

I should also saw that in comparison to my M10, the S1 seems to have the sharper detail, but the M10 still wins on corner/edge sharpness for 75mm lenses and shorter. Even though the 75mm summicron is sharp on the S1, the edges are sharper overall on the M10. Stopped down, the S1 seems to be the sharper sensor, even with sharpening turned off. I am not sure why that is.

[jonoslack]

On 5/8/2019 at 6:02 PM, ivohula said:

Let's take this thread back to the start and my question which I believe has not been clearly answered.

As far as the Panasonics go for being a back-up for a M series body what is the news? What is the consensus about use of Leica M mount lenses on the S1 and S1R? I know that 6 bit code is not recorded by them as it is on the SL.

The main issue for me is picture quality. Is there any smearing in the corners with the wide Summiluxes on the Panasonics? There probably is very little difference in the >50mm lens range, but has anyone done any testing with the WATE, MATE, and the 21mm, 24mm and 35 mm Summis? It appears that Steve Huff thinks M lenses work great, but he has used Voigtlander lenses. The Panasonic sensor seems great, but how is the sensor glass for the M lenses? Will sensor glass replacement be done on these bodies, as was the case on the Sonys?

Hi There

Great answer from Stuart

It's a good question, and only a lot of comparison shots near infinity will really satisfy the question.

If you believe Sean Reid (which I do) then it's the thickness of the coverglass which really makes a difference.

It will be worst near infinity (when the rear element of the lens is closest to the sensor ) . . (my idea I think). 

The coverglass on the S1 is thicker than that on the SL and much thicker than the M, which means that it will almost inevitably behave less well with M lenses. Worth remembering that there are benefits in thicker cover glass (IR and dust), which is why camera companies usually use it.

However, the lenses you mention (WATE, MATE, 21,24,28 Summiluxes) are all relatively telecentric and are less likely to be a problem on the S1. 

Worth mentioning that the smearing problem isn't really related to either the focal length or the aperture, but the angle of incidence and the distance from the rear element to the sensor (for instance the 50 Summilux is really quite bad on cameras with a thicker coverglass). So you might find that the WATE and the 28 'Lux is pretty good . . but that the 50 'lux and 75 'cron are quite bad.

I'm expecting to get hold of an S1 soon, and I'll be doing some testing and hopefully come to some conclusions.

all the best

[Chaemono]

I hope Jono does these corner smearing tests because one, I can't do these infinity comparisons. There's always something obstructing infinity where I live. And two, I find M lenses on the S1 repulsive. If Steve Huff had an 'ugliest combo of the year' award, the S1/S1R with M lenses would receive it, just for its unaesthetic lack of appeal (double negative to reenforce how ugly the combo is).

[ron777]

I hate to say this, because I know that it will cause a firestorm, but I feel compelled.  Many of the M lenses out there (those previously owned by myself and I suspect others on this site) are or were more than 20 years old.  Bantering back and forth about how they look on a given modern day camera is tantamount to asking someone how whitewall tires look on a brand new Ferrari, for which they hadn't been intended.  And to some extent, the same logic applies to function.  I wouldn't buy a new car based upon the appearance or function of my old tires on that vehicle, so why would I be concerned about camera/lens appearance/function?  Anyway, I'm wearing my chainmail and headgear, so you can begin charging your trebuchets.

Edited May 15, 2019 by ron777

[jonoslack]

2 minutes ago, ron777 said:

I hate to say this, because I know that it will cause a firestorm, but I feel compelled.  Many of the M lenses out there (those previously owned by myself and I suspect others on this site) are or were more than 20 years old.  Bantering back and forth about how they look on a given modern day camera is tantamount to asking someone how whitewall tires look on a brand new Ferrari, for which they hadn't been intended.  And to some extent, the same logic applies to function.  I wouldn't buy a new car based upon the appearance or function of my old tires on that vehicle, so why would I be concerned about camera/lens appearance/function?  Anyway, I'm wearing my chainmail and headgear, so you can begin charging your trebuchets.

Haha! I don’t think you need worry. But even the oldest M lenses work well on the SL (and are therefore a pleasure to use). 

So surely it’s rational to ask whether they do well on the S1/1R. What wouldn’t be rational would be to expect Panasonic to make a special effort to make it so. 

[ron777]

I agree, and that's the point I was trying to make in a somewhat metaphoric and or allegoric fashion.  

Edited May 15, 2019 by ron777

[jonoslack]

13 hours ago, Chaemono said:

I hope Jono does these corner smearing tests because one, I can't do these infinity comparisons. There's always something obstructing infinity where I live. And two, I find M lenses on the S1 repulsive. If Steve Huff had an 'ugliest combo of the year' award, the S1/S1R with M lenses would receive it, just for its unaesthetic lack of appeal (double negative to reenforce how ugly the combo is).

I think I'm going to do it . . but the prospect fills me with a lethargic sense of doom . . I don't like doing testing very much, and it means I have to find my tripod (always a challenge). As for infinity - in reality 30 or 40 metres usually does the trick, we have a very good garden hedge which works for me! What's even worse is that, because the exif information won't include the M lens, it means that I'll actually have to make notes as I go along (zzzzzz).

More gloomy in that (although I might buy an S1) I wouldn't dream of using it with M lenses (Just like I don't use the SL with M lenses). However, I realise that it is a question that's being asked, and for quite a lot of people it would be nice to have some kind of semi-definitive answer. 

[thighslapper]

2 hours ago, jonoslack said:

I think I'm going to do it . . but the prospect fills me with a lethargic sense of doom . . I don't like doing testing very much, and it means I have to find my tripod (always a challenge). As for infinity - in reality 30 or 40 metres usually does the trick, we have a very good garden hedge which works for me! What's even worse is that, because the exif information won't include the M lens, it means that I'll actually have to make notes as I go along (zzzzzz).

More gloomy in that (although I might buy an S1) I wouldn't dream of using it with M lenses (Just like I don't use the SL with M lenses). However, I realise that it is a question that's being asked, and for quite a lot of people it would be nice to have some kind of semi-definitive answer. 

Precisely why I haven't bothered ..... although I have the lenses and cameras to carry out the comparisons. 

With the 21/3.4 the edge performance on the M240 wide open was good, marginally worse with some minor smearing on the SL and worse still from my testing on the S1R. (I posted some DNG's in march via Dropbox). The APO 50/2 seemed fine ..... which follows the pattern you would expect and I can't see the point in investigating further as I too have no interest in using M lenses (apart from the Noctilux, Apo 50/2 and Tri-Elmar occasionally) on the S1R or SL. 

With an even (presumably) smaller pixel pitch I think Leica will have a headache maintaining W/A M lens peripheral performance on an SL2 unless they can reduce the cover glass thickness even further and maintain very shallow sensor wells and compensatory microlenses. 

Edited May 16, 2019 by thighslapper

[jonoslack]

22 minutes ago, thighslapper said:

 With an even (presumably) smaller pixel pitch I think Leica will have a headache maintaining W/A M lens peripheral performance on an SL2 unless they can reduce the cover glass thickness even further and maintain very shallow sensor wells and compensatory microlenses. 

Hi there. I hope you’re flourishing. 

I saw your comparisons- excellent. 

Interesting point about the pixel pitch. I’m not convinced that it will make any difference (except, perhaps at 100%).

Also I’m a little doubtful about whether the SL has special microlenses?

 I’m going to do it with the S1 (at least initially). Doing the tests might be selfless 😇😇 but having the S1 rather than the S1r is entirely selfish (I think I might want one for weddings where I need 47mp like a hole in the head!). 

All the best

[Chaemono]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb thighslapper:

With an even (presumably) smaller pixel pitch I think Leica will have a headache maintaining W/A M lens peripheral performance on an SL2 unless they can reduce the cover glass thickness even further and maintain very shallow sensor wells and compensatory microlenses. 

I think, you’re right. It’s an issue. They are working to resolve it. 

[caissa]

Refreshments ?  S1 in depth part 1.   https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9vhftKK6Rx0

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[caissa]

S1R won camera of the year (Japan) award .  https://www.panasonicff.com/
https://www.panasonicff.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-received-camera-of-the-year-in-japan/
Japanese Camera Grand Prix.  https://photorumors.com/2019/05/17/the-japanese-camera-grand-prix-2019-awards-are-out/

And the S1 got a TIPA award.  https://photorumors.com/2019/04/02/the-2019-tipa-awards-are-out/

I get the impression there are soon more awards than cameras ...  

Edited May 19, 2019 by caissa