Is the S1/S1R a good backup camera for SL

[caissa]

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For contrast this report from a Sony photographer. They would say that, wouldn’t they ?

But what I found silly is his thinking: “Reasons for switching to S1”. If he has a Sony that he likes, why should he ever switch, and vice versa. I would only ever switch away from a system that gives me mainly troubles. Or if planning to break new ground. So for example getting a first mirrorless camera could be a valid motivation. But with a collection of Leica lenses, why should a user switch to Sony ? (Vice versa with an owner of Sony lenses).

https://louisvillephotographer.com/2019/04/25/panasonic-lumix-s1-review-from-a-sony-photographer/

Edited May 2, 2019 by caissa

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[BernardC]

On 5/1/2019 at 7:43 PM, caissa said:

But what I found silly is his thinking: “Reasons for switching to S1”.

Isn't it really about "reasons to publish an article about reasons to switch from (product a) to (product b)?"

The answer is "because these articles get clicks." The article's premise is absurd, but it's an absurd premise that advertiser love.

[ron777]

On 5/1/2019 at 7:43 PM, caissa said:

For contrast this report from a Sony photographer. They would say that, wouldn’t they ?

But what I found silly is his thinking: “Reasons for switching to S1”. If he has a Sony that he likes, why should he ever switch, and vice versa. I would only ever switch away from a system that gives me mainly troubles. Or if planning to break new ground. So for example getting a first mirrorless camera could be a valid motivation. But with a collection of Leica lenses, why should a user switch to Sony ? (Vice versa with an owner of Sony lenses).

https://louisvillephotographer.com/2019/04/25/panasonic-lumix-s1-review-from-a-sony-photographer/

I've read the linked article, and to my eyes and understanding the author clearly spelled out his reasons for disliking the Sony camera, most of which I can agree with, since, I own a Sony a7rIII and can concur with his grievances, as well as his comparative impression of the Panasonic S cameras.  The only way I convince myself to use the Sony is with its battery grip attached, otherwise it is just too small, for myself, an ergonomic nightmare. 

Edited May 3, 2019 by ron777

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 5/2/2019 at 9:43 AM, caissa said:

For contrast this report from a Sony photographer. They would say that, wouldn’t they ?

But what I found silly is his thinking: “Reasons for switching to S1”. If he has a Sony that he likes, why should he ever switch, and vice versa. I would only ever switch away from a system that gives me mainly troubles. Or if planning to break new ground. So for example getting a first mirrorless camera could be a valid motivation. But with a collection of Leica lenses, why should a user switch to Sony ? (Vice versa with an owner of Sony lenses).

https://louisvillephotographer.com/2019/04/25/panasonic-lumix-s1-review-from-a-sony-photographer/

That guy might be my long lost brother.  Admittedly I did already own the SL lenses but I also have the Sony's as well and the S1R is letting me get rid of the Sony's for exactly the reason he mentions.

Gordon

[caissa]

Another “trusted” review   https://www.trustedreviews.com/reviews/panasonic-s1r

And:    The big comparison from dpreview (video), S1R vs Z7 vs a7R III .   https://www.dpreview.com/videos/7669743422/dpreview-tv-panasonic-s1r-vs-nikon-z7-vs-sony-a7r-iii

But I am quite sure not everybody will agree with the ranking ...

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by caissa

[caissa]

I ask myself, when is a camera fast or slow ? Some (probably most) mean fast AF. Many mean also continuous AF. For me it is more the general reaction time (when watching the photos or changing the settings, or from sleep to get the first photo). In this sense the SL or S1R are fast for me. So which is more important ? Single AF speed is important for me, continuous AF speed much less, but a general fast reaction time is even more important (less nerve racking).  Some users said after the new firmware update the Sony’s are slower reacting (but with better AF capabilities). Is this true ? (Or just the impression of only a few users ?)

Edited May 5, 2019 by caissa

[caissa]

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A lot of nervous hickups and a big fuss about the L-alliance and what Leica should do ...   bla bla bla   Just because the MC-21 adapter is not working on the SL. 
Yes it would have been nice, but it is not such a big issue. The native lenses will be faster anyway. (Is the MC-21 a way to make people lean towards native lenses ?)   https://www.eoshd.com/2019/03/did-leica-just-veto-the-sigma-mc-21-canon-ef-adapter-for-l-mount-so-much-for-an-alliance/

More thinking and altogether a wiser reaction from Richard Wong who has lately tested the MC-21 mount converter on the S1R.  

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by caissa

[caissa]

The cheap (only 100$) Canon EF 50mm STM f 1.8 could also be a nice lens for street photography as it is very small and unobtrusive (even with mc-21). And it is universally usable, even as a (very) low cost macro lens (35 cm and even closer with macro ring and close-up lens). Quite a nice IQ at that price (stopped down a bit).

I just found out: It's crazy, the macro ring (AF extension tube, 25mm) without lenses is more expensive than the 50mm STM lens. Hahaha    (air is more expensive than precision glass).  There is also one with 12mm (slightly cheaper and long enough for a start).

Edited May 5, 2019 by caissa

[caissa]

Another video about the MC-21 .
I'd like to add generally: Many are now complaining that the adapter does not support continuous AF. While MC-11 does, NOW, but not at the beginning. So it is possible that Sigma will also continue to improve this adapter for later AFc support. They did not promise it, but they did it with the third party adapter (MC-11) and for the MC-21 they are actually first party or first hand. So do not worry about that too much, for landscape or models (face/eye detection works) it is usually not necessary (ok. bad for bird photographers or people with sports photography in mind).
Sorry, it is in german.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4nvR7UjELE

 

Edited May 5, 2019 by caissa

[caissa]

Camerajabber about Lumix S1R

Detailed review with full res sample images and 4K video    https://camerajabber.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-review/
Howto shoot high res.   https://camerajabber.com/how-to-shoot-high-resolution-images-with-the-panasonic-lumix-s1-and-s1r/

Edited May 6, 2019 by caissa

[padam]

22 hours ago, caissa said:

The cheap (only 100$) Canon EF 50mm STM f 1.8 could also be a nice lens for street photography as it is very small and unobtrusive (even with mc-21). And it is universally usable, even as a (very) low cost macro lens (35 cm and even closer with macro ring and close-up lens). Quite a nice IQ at that price (stopped down a bit).

I just found out: It's crazy, the macro ring (AF extension tube, 25mm) without lenses is more expensive than the 50mm STM lens. Hahaha    (air is more expensive than precision glass).  There is also one with 12mm (slightly cheaper and long enough for a start).

In that case why not get one of the Canon mirrorless bodies, much smaller, lighter, cheaper and focuses a lot faster with continuous tracking (including eye-tracking)

Apart from gaining image stabilisation (does not work in conjunction with adapted lens IS) and taking advantage of the great video features, I fail to see why it is a good idea to adapt EF instead of using L-mount or all-manual glass with the high-res EVF.

It was fun using Canon EF on Sony, but it today's world it is just not that good anymore, and with contrast-only and adapted it will be even worse on the Panasonic.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

The MC21 was too slow with the limited number of lenses I tested (including the 50mm ART) to be useful as an autofocus steret camera. I'll have mine later this week but I mostly want it for my TS lenses.

Gordon

[caissa]

5 hours ago, padam said:

In that case why not get one of the Canon mirrorless bodies, much smaller, lighter, cheaper and focuses a lot faster with continuous tracking (including eye-tracking)

Apart from gaining image stabilisation (does not work in conjunction with adapted lens IS) and taking advantage of the great video features, I fail to see why it is a good idea to adapt EF instead of using L-mount or all-manual glass with the high-res EVF.

It was fun using Canon EF on Sony, but it today's world it is just not that good anymore, and with contrast-only and adapted it will be even worse on the Panasonic.

Wong tried the 50mm and it looked not slow in his video, and eye-detect was also working. And it is FF, so probably better than a TL lens, and far cheaper. I don’t think the R cameras are attractive for L-mount users.

[padam]

8 hours ago, caissa said:

Wong tried the 50mm and it looked not slow in his video, and eye-detect was also working. And it is FF, so probably better than a TL lens, and far cheaper. I don’t think the R cameras are attractive for L-mount users.

Maybe we are looking at different videos, then. The adapted 50mm AF seems very slow and totally unsuitable for the street. Reminds me of the first generation Sony mirrorless cameras from 2013 (of course there was no eye-tracking then).

[helged]

4 minutes ago, padam said:

Maybe we are looking at different videos, then. The adapted 50mm AF seems very slow and totally unsuitable for the street. Reminds me of the first generation Sony mirrorless cameras from 2013 (of course there was no eye-tracking then).

As far as I understand it, there are differences in AFC in still and video mode. The former works quite well, e.g. 

, whereas some 'delay' is part of the video mode. The latter tends to give smooth focus transitions, in contrast to very quick adjustments and often subsequent focus readjustments, that may look disturbing (obviously, too slow AF is certainly also disturbing). From one that hardly takes videos at all 😉... 

[padam]

16 minutes ago, helged said:

As far as I understand it, there are differences in AFC in still and video mode. The former works quite well, e.g. , whereas some 'delay' is part of the video mode. The latter tends to give smooth focus transitions, in contrast to very quick adjustments and often subsequent focus readjustments, that may look disturbing (obviously, too slow AF is certainly also disturbing). From one that hardly takes videos at all 😉... 

I was referring to real world use on the street where I see something happening quickly and I would like to capture it, with an adapted lens it probably won't work at all, much better sticking to manually focusing (but in that case, is it really useful to use a big camera like this when this feature is possible with other cameras as well)

The thing about contrast-based AF is that is it always a compromise, because it has to move back and forth to confirm focus. That is relatively fine on a m43 sensor, because it has a bit of extra DOF to cover that. With FF it is a different story, it is either slower or it might not be fully accurate. It is the same problem with the tracking. L-mount lenses are a must for this, because they can rely on prediction better.

I don't mind the concept of adapting lenses and I do understand that there are plenty of uses where the AF is good enough (or it simply does not matter, like Tilt-Shift), but we are not in 2013 anymore.

[helged]

3 minutes ago, padam said:

I was referring to real world use on the street where I see something happening quickly and I would like to capture it, with an adapted lens it probably won't work at all, much better sticking to manually focusing (but in that case, is it really useful to use a big camera like this when this feature is possible with other cameras as well)

The thing about contrast-based AF is that is it always a compromise, because it has to move back and forth to confirm focus. That is relatively fine on a m43 sensor, because it has a bit of extra DOF to cover that. With FF it is a different story, it is either slower or it might not be fully accurate. It is the same problem with the tracking. L-mount lenses are a must for this, because they can rely on prediction better.

I don't mind the concept of adapting lenses and I do understand that there are plenty of uses where the AF is good enough (or it simply does not matter, like Tilt-Shift), but we are not in 2013 anymore.

Agree. On the positive side, L-lenses on S1/R are quite quick and accurate in single AF mode. Actually, I will say that the focus speed is comparable to the Nikons I have, although I suspect the accuracy to be slighthly lower and likely more influenced by tricky light situations (still early days). And yes, sometimes the AF misses, and in those situations it takes some time to get focus on target. Most of the above is based on the 75SL (and to some degree the three Leica L zooms) on S1R. 

[caissa]

It all depends on expectations and needs. And my needs are NOT in the fastest possible AFc. Even this “slow” lens is faster than most users with manual focus. With very few exceptions. So it is not clever to use the widest aperture (e.g. 1.2) if one expects fast and reliable AF. All fast 50s are rather slow (regarding AF) compared to many zooms. I prefer the precision of the Panasonic AF to the speed of the  PDAF. And eye detect works also with adapted lenses, unlike the Canon AF. 

I have a Canon 5Ds if I want faster tracking, but I never use it for that, but only for resolution. A Canon R would not bring anything worthwhile to the table. Sooner or later a Lumix will probably also replace this 5Ds. But why hurry ?

And EVERY AF is a compromise, ask the guy from lensrentals (Cicala ?) - he wrote a series about AF.

So for me this entry lens is not bad at all, but if others don’t like it, no problem. I have it since it came out, it’s a lens for the Sunday walk. (The SL50 isn’t.) The Sigma 50 is optically clearly better, but even slower and not small at all.

And the weight/size topic (regarding cameras) is really stupid. Seems to come from a science fiction story (new heroes with high tech = small; old tech (losers) = big heavy, steel instead of plastic, clash of cultures). Reality is not so simple. In ergonomics smaller means not better or better usable. But Sony still rides on the fiction wave in their ads. (For simple minds not minding jammed fingers.) 

I feel sick when I see the web experts (e.g. Northrups) telling me which camera is worth the money. In this sense Leica should be bankrupt since many decades. I can’t remember a time when the experts (even before the web) did not find other brands much better, modern and altogether more value for money. So the users here are just a bunch of lowbrows according to the experts.....  😪

Edited May 7, 2019 by caissa

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[thighslapper]

42 minutes ago, caissa said:

I feel sick when I see the web experts (e.g. Northrups) telling me which camera is worth the money. In this sense Leica should be bankrupt since many decades. I can’t remember a time when the experts (even before the web) did not find other brands much better, modern and altogether more value for money. So the users here are just a bunch of lowbrows according to the experts.....  😪

aaah ....... now I know why I can't get on with a Sony ...... it's my neanderthal dna and knuckles that scrape the ground when I walk .....  

[caissa]

For those who like the number game, here the dxo-marks for the Lumix S1R (S1 was published before).  https://www.dxomark.com/panasonic-lumix-s1r-sensor-review/

Interesting to see that DxO found it even better than the S1 sensor. (While there is still a discussion, if this sensor is good enough for SL2 or not ?!).  As usual there is only meaning in these numbers for the specialists. So I would take it with a grain of salt. The overall score shows how close these cameras are. (And what is the insecurity/error margin ? I learned in school that measurements without published margins are meaningless/faulty. Did the guys of DxO wag school ?)

An example of details not visible here: Dynamic range. At iso100 the lumix sensor is not best, but only number x. But at iso400 or iso800 (more important for many) it is the best of all (for the S1 sensor, for S1R I need to check again, or no, I leave that to you 😎).

Edited May 7, 2019 by caissa