Leica M9 Corrosion with New Sensor

[jdlaing]

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1 hour ago, View From Space said:

I just received my Leica M9 Mono body back from Leica after paying for sensor replacement. I will do some shooting over the next few days to compare with shots with original sensor. I did have corrosion issues on my original sensor.

Does anyone have any links to specifications for the current M9 replacement sensor that Leica currently installs? I can’t find an details on what specs are for the new sensor Leica installed into my M9 Mono.

Thanks!
 

It’s the same sensor as the original. The cover glass is different.

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[michali]

My Monochrom1 is at Leica right now having its 2nd sensor replacement.The original sensor was replaced free of charge in March 2015. That replacement sensor (also vers.1) has now also corroded, it only started showing signs of corrosion in Sept. 2019. I've been engaged in a great deal of arm wrestling with Leica since Sept, they won't budge. This time around I've had to pay to have this sensor replacement done.

Exactly the same story with my M9, original sensor replaced in early 2015, corrosion reappeared in May 2019. So that's 2 cameras I'm paying €1, 300- each for 2 new sensors.

As much as Leica's Customer Service team have been great, accommodating and super efficient  -the repair's being done within 2 days- I'm still not particularly happy about this situation. Leica's attitude has been take it or leave it.

Normally I'd walk away,  however I'm too heavily invested in the brand since about 1976:  +10 Leica cameras ranging from 1932 Leica Standards, several M cameras to SL2. Not to mention a small fortune invested in lenses. 

The situation I find myself in reminds me of Theodore Roosevelt's quote: 
“If you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.”

Edited February 11, 2020 by michali

[ianman]

Sorry to hear that Mike.

That is not exactly a very good attitude from Leica. As you write CS has been excellent, my own experience with CS has been nothing less than excellent, it must be higher up that they have decided that no exceptions/concessions will be made on any grounds.

Although I was lucky enough to have had my sensor changed during the "good will" period, I like many find Leicas attitude and policies have been anything but "good will" during the whole debacle. Communication was very poor if not non-existant. No effort whatsoever was made to alert users of the potential problem.

I still think they should should have either done a full recall and changed every sensor whatever it's state, or kept the free exchange program running indefinitely. Obviously this would only cover corrosion damage. After all, it was a fundamental flaw of a fundamental component.

[michali]

33 minutes ago, ianman said:

Sorry to hear that Mike.

That is not exactly a very good attitude from Leica. As you write CS has been excellent, my own experience with CS has been nothing less than excellent, it must be higher up that they have decided that no exceptions/concessions will be made on any grounds.

Although I was lucky enough to have had my sensor changed during the "good will" period, I like many find Leicas attitude and policies have been anything but "good will" during the whole debacle. Communication was very poor if not non-existant. No effort whatsoever was made to alert users of the potential problem.

I still think they should should have either done a full recall and changed every sensor whatever it's state, or kept the free exchange program running indefinitely. Obviously this would only cover corrosion damage. After all, it was a fundamental flaw of a fundamental component.

Thanks Ian, I fully agree with everything you say! 

Given EU consumer protection laws etc. I'm still amazed at how Leica managed to pull this one off and get away with it. Anyway, life's too short to get bogged down in this crap, I've paid the money and carry on.  However, this situation has left an unpleasant taste...

Best,

Mike

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by michali

[IkarusJohn]

I totally agree, Mike.

I was so annoyed when my M9 corroded, I switched to an M-A.  When I sent my corroded Monochrom in for repair, I was lucky, I guess, that the new sensor had been developed.  If they’d simply reinstalled a faulty sensor, I’d have been furious (actually, I nursed my corroded sensor on my Monochrom for that reason).  Leica should never have used those faulty sensors for replacement, and to now charge for what should have been used in the first place is outrageous.

But what can you do?  As a loyal Leica customer, it has certainly dented my faith in a company I liked and trusted.

[Kathrin]

On 1/15/2019 at 8:44 AM, Giacomo.B said:

Hello everyone, I wanted to ask a question, for curiosity, no one had corrosion problems on M9 sensors replaced after 2017 ??

I ask this because in Italy someone without proof states that the modified sensors will have the same problems as the originals. Truth or Madness as I think? 

 

Ciao

 

Giacomo

 

 

On 1/15/2019 at 8:44 AM, Giacomo.B said:

Hello everyone, I wanted to ask a question, for curiosity, no one had corrosion problems on M9 sensors replaced after 2017 ??

I ask this because in Italy someone without proof states that the modified sensors will have the same problems as the originals. Truth or Madness as I think? 

 

Ciao

 

Giacomo

 

Hi Giacomo,

I acquired my M9 in 2011. By 2015 I had already sent it to Leica NJ, USA in order to get a free replacement of the sensor, camera had died on me, not sure what was wrong, apparently the sensor !?).

Fast forward, December 2019 I noted a bunch of spots that I believed to be dust and sent again to Leica NJ: sensor corroded AGAIN, 1,600 US$ to fix. After enraged email (I am Italian too, so you know how vocal we can get LOL), so I am offered and upgrade to the M10 or the CL, with a robust discount. I took advantage of it, but I am still worried about this “fragile” sensors...

Upgraded to a M10 that is traveling as we speak to reach me. I love this camera...

 

[michali]

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12 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I totally agree, Mike.

I was so annoyed when my M9 corroded, I switched to an M-A.  When I sent my corroded Monochrom in for repair, I was lucky, I guess, that the new sensor had been developed.  If they’d simply reinstalled a faulty sensor, I’d have been furious (actually, I nursed my corroded sensor on my Monochrom for that reason).  Leica should never have used those faulty sensors for replacement, and to now charge for what should have been used in the first place is outrageous.

But what can you do?  As a loyal Leica customer, it has certainly dented my faith in a company I liked and trusted.

Wise move. I wish I had done the same as you at the time, however there was another layer of complication, in addition to the corrosion on the original sensor it had also cracked.  And to think that Leica then replaced the original sensor with the same type of faulty sensor, which then failed again and then to make the user pay for this, is as you say outrageous. 

Anyway enough ranting, I'm looking forward to getting my Monochrom back from Germany later this week.....

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[stevesurf]

On 2/11/2020 at 7:41 AM, michali said:

My Monochrom1 is at Leica right now having its 2nd sensor replacement.The original sensor was replaced free of charge in March 2015. That replacement sensor (also vers.1) has now also corroded, it only started showing signs of corrosion in Sept. 2019. I've been engaged in a great deal of arm wrestling with Leica since Sept, they won't budge. This time around I've had to pay to have this sensor replacement done.

Hello there and please excuse me for resurrecting a "Zombie thread."  I thought that Leica was no longer replacing corroded M9/MM sensors and only offering their "upgrade" program.  Here's a Red Dot Forum article from 03 2021:

Quote

Along with the upcoming April 1, 2021 price increase, Leica has announced new pricing across the board for its CCD Sensor Corrosion Upgrade Program. Just as we reported last year, corroded M9 sensors can no longer be replaced, but M9 owners can still take advantage of special pricing to upgrade to an M, Q, SL or CL model in the current lineup. 

Are they replacing sensors at cost or not?

I think it is a significant error of judgement to put an arbitrary time limit on the main component of a very expensive imaging device, with a known defect, regardless of whether you believe the "lifespan" of a digital camera is five, ten or twenty years.  That said, I am a huge fan of Leica, but you would not catch me "upgrading" my M9 for a Q2 or CL (?!).  As others have said, I am surprised they got away with this as an EU manufacturer with an amazing history.  As someone that worked for two industrial camera companies, one of them Panasonic, we would always strive to satisfy the customer.  In a previous post, someone even suggested an "upgrade" to a current film camera; this IMHO would be very reasonable, but not at the $5K USD prices they are quoting.  Every manufacturer has inventory of demo units in fantastic condition that could be part of a trade in program.  But, I understand, but certainly do not condone inflexibility.  I experienced this with two repairs to my M7 with a known defect of the shutter release button spindle, but I apologize for the digression.  I hope all your sensors live a long life of clarity 🙏

[michali]

7 hours ago, stevesurf said:

Hello there and please excuse me for resurrecting a "Zombie thread."  I thought that Leica was no longer replacing corroded M9/MM sensors and only offering their "upgrade" program.  Here's a Red Dot Forum article from 03 2021:

Are they replacing sensors at cost or not?

Leica stopped replacing M9 & Monochrom sensors last year. They claimed that sensors were being replaced at cost, only Leica know if that's true or not.

[Anbaric]

13 hours ago, stevesurf said:

I think it is a significant error of judgement to put an arbitrary time limit on the main component of a very expensive imaging device, with a known defect, regardless of whether you believe the "lifespan" of a digital camera is five, ten or twenty years.  That said, I am a huge fan of Leica, but you would not catch me "upgrading" my M9 for a Q2 or CL (?!).  As others have said, I am surprised they got away with this as an EU manufacturer with an amazing history.

I wonder if they would get away with it if legally challenged in the EU or another country with strong consumer laws? They were still selling the M-E 220 with the faulty M9 sensor in 2015, when they'd known for some time there was a problem with it. By 2020, it was no longer possible to replace the sensor (even for the hefty fee they'd had the cheek to charge owners of older cameras from 2017), potentially limiting the lifespan of a £4000/$5500 camera to 5 years. And now the only recourse they offer within the M system is an upgrade to an even more expensive camera under less favourable terms than before. Perhaps unavailability of CCD sensors takes this partly out of Leica's hands, but that does not stop them being a lot more generous to those who who bought this fundamentally defective product, especially if they want to keep them as customers.

[ianman]

3 hours ago, Anbaric said:

Perhaps unavailability of CCD sensors takes this partly out of Leica's hands, but that does not stop them being a lot more generous to those who who bought this fundamentally defective product, especially if they want to keep them as customers.

Totally agree with this. I thought their is an EU law which states that a manufacturer must guarantee the availability of spare parts for 10 years after the end of production. But I'm not sure when this law came into being and if cameras are covered.

But it does make one wonder where they got all those new sensors from when they sold a load of refurbished M9s a coulpe of years ago, and why they thought it would be a good idea to sell the sensors in the refurbished cameras rather than keep them for customers who ended up with bricks on their hands.

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, ianman said:

But it does make one wonder where they got all those new sensors from when they sold a load of refurbished M9s a coulpe of years ago, and why they thought it would be a good idea to sell the sensors in the refurbished cameras rather than keep them for customers who ended up with bricks on their hands.

I searched and found this July 2019 piece by LCF member Jonathan Slack:

https://www.slack.co.uk/m9-for-ccd-lovers.html

'Then, when I looked at the display cabinets I realised they were filled with startlingly a la carte M9 cameras. [Michel-Alexandre Razafimahefa, Leica Customer Care, Wetlzar] explained that they had the space . . and they had the cameras and the sensors and the shutters and thought it might be a good idea to put it all together.'

I don't suppose owners who tried to get their sensors replaced from August 2020 would agree...

Edited November 7, 2021 by Anbaric

[Adam Bonn]

Kodak sold their sensor business to someone, (I think to Truesense) who in turn sold it to On Semi, who then stopped making CCD sensors (after iirc about five years)

https://image-sensors-world.blogspot.com/2019/09/on-semi-rochester-stops-making-ccds.html

There's several companies that seem to be able to replace the cover glass, and perhaps Leica should've worked with one of these service providers to keep the M9 going and adhere to Euro law about spare parts availability...

Equally Leica could just make another 9 stop DR camera with a more gentle highlight roll off, but now I'm just being silly 😅

[michali]

2 hours ago, ianman said:

Totally agree with this. I thought their is an EU law which states that a manufacturer must guarantee the availability of spare parts for 10 years after the end of production. But I'm not sure when this law came into being and if cameras are covered.

But it does make one wonder where they got all those new sensors from when they sold a load of refurbished M9s a coulpe of years ago, and why they thought it would be a good idea to sell the sensors in the refurbished cameras rather than keep them for customers who ended up with bricks on their hands.

I've been thinking the same Ian. After having my Monochrom sensor replaced (at my cost),  I was then going to send the M9 in for its sensor replacement & then came Leica's announcement of no more.... I'm now sitting with an M9 brick.

So all the new M9 sensors went into refurbed M9s which they took in as  trade-ins on the upgrade program & which they then resold at a profit &  leaving some of us with useless bricks. When I think about it I'm still so pissed off with Leica! 

What all of this also doesn't factor in, is the rigmarole & jerk-around with customs in & out of South Africa (in my case). Leica asked me to place a nominal value of EUR1, 000- on the customs invoice when I sent the camera from SA to Germany for repair, which caps their duties into Germany.  

When the camera was returned  to me from Germany to SA they placed a value in excess of EUR2, 000- which of course cost me more customs duties i.e. the difference between the export & re-importation values...... This resulted in another punch up with Leica, they refused to budge on the new invoice value & telling me that's the way it is.  It's just appalling!

As I've previously said, normally I would've walked away, but am too heavily invested in Leica equipment.

Edited November 7, 2021 by michali

[IkarusJohn]

I feel for you, Mike.  You have been very badly treated …

[Anbaric]

6 hours ago, michali said:

So all the new M9 sensors went into refurbed M9s which they took in as  trade-ins on the upgrade program & which they then resold at a profit &  leaving some of us with useless bricks. When I think about it I'm still so pissed off with Leica!

Previous trade-ins do seem like a likely source of those 'spare' bodies, which adds insult to injury.

I wonder what happens to customers who bought those $25k+ special editions, like the Titanium? Unless they get special treatment, or a standard camera with the updated sensor is cannibalised, I suppose they are just left with fancier bricks. Of course, a collector would actually have to take the camera out of the box and use it to find out if the sensor had corroded...

[maitoparta]

On 11/8/2021 at 3:15 AM, Anbaric said:

Previous trade-ins do seem like a likely source of those 'spare' bodies, which adds insult to injury.

I wonder what happens to customers who bought those $25k+ special editions, like the Titanium? Unless they get special treatment, or a standard camera with the updated sensor is cannibalised, I suppose they are just left with fancier bricks. Of course, a collector would actually have to take the camera out of the box and use it to find out if the sensor had corroded...

Those cameras never get used, so effectively it does not matter if they are all empty inside. In practice of course the collector value would decrease.

[addywin]

On 11/23/2019 at 10:10 AM, escimo said:

 

Link or some more hints to the thread? It should be easy to get the IDs out of the firmware.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/256823-m9-nach-sensortausch-plötzliches-abschalten-einschalten-nicht-mehr-möglich/?tab=comments#comment-2988868

 

The sensor in my M9 was replaced between Aug, 25 2015 and Sep, 29 2015.

Two shoots, taken with my M9 in Jan, 2019 - repeat - 2019. Added red marker to focus on the "findings"

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Could this only be dust? - I have to take a closer look onto the sensor and after that compare the results with the shots made to proof a problem exist back in 2015,  just before the M9 was sent in to Leica CS/CC.

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/230270-umfrage-wer-hat-in-seiner-m9-me-mm-oder-m240-einen-ausgetauschten-sensor/page/117/?tab=comments#comment-2882852

I'm confused about pro/contra from the statements given here about the problem was never fixed, only recessed by changing the hole unit by affected ones. I'd have to look on other shoots on the same position to decide if it's time to send it in again, after near five years in the wild.

Cheers, escimo

 

Did you find the solution of this problem? Is it a dust or sensor corrosion? 

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Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

On 2/21/2022 at 5:45 AM, addywin said:

Did you find the solution of this problem? Is it a dust or sensor corrosion? 

That does look like corrosion and there is no realistic solution except finding a third party to replace the cover glass. Leica cannot help you; there are no replacement sensors. 

[ianman]

Actually it doesn’t look like dust or corrosion at all. Maybe the owner sneezed while changing lens?