Zeiss 120/4 Makro Planar: repro ratio and user experiences

[ynp]

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Hi Tom,

I am no pro, but I have had to shoot paintings and other flat artwork for my wife’s art business. She semi retired and sold her gallery and I don’t need to do copying work anymore. I started with the Sinar 22 and than Sinar 54h and learned how to use the view camera. Than I bought my S2-p and my all Sinar kit was stolen. For some reason the burglars did not take my S2 and the Leica and other  lenses. Lol. 

I was left with my S2 and my Lenses. I had a Hasselblad H with a P1 22 mpx back for a while and I had an old HC120. I replaced it with the second model, the HC120-II. With the adapter it was very nice on my Leica. I realized that I prefer it against the S120mm when I bought the Leica Makro lens during a long shoot of a flat art collection, mostly small sized Japanese prints. Maybe my Leica S120mm is a lemon, but the Hasselblad lens was sharper at the distancees of about 1-2,5 meters. Closer,  it’s the only lens I trust. It does not have any chromatic aberrations. At least any visible aberrations. 

Tha only bad thing I know about the HC120mm is the terrible bokeh when shooting wide open at f4 for portraits. The Leica is a fantastic portrait lens in my opinion. The Leica , for me, it’s a general purpose beautiful lens  

IMHO  

Yevgeny

Moscow   

 

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[chrismuc]

Hi Tom, 

I don't have a an S System but I use the Contax 645 120f4 Apo-Makro on my Contax 645 + IQ180 and via a Steelsring adapter on my Fuji GFX50S. The IQ of the lens is at any distance very good with both cameras. I would say it is not on the level of the razor sharp Fuji GF lenses which are '100 MP ready' but sufficient for sensors like IQ180 (5.2um), Fuji GFX50S (5.3um) and Leica S/S2 (6.0um). I of course 🙂 consider to get the upcoming Fuji GFX100S which will be very demanding with its 3.8um pixel pitch. If I would be in macro works, I would get the Fuji GF 120 macro lens which is surely sharper than the Contax. But in your case, IMO the Contax makes perfectly sense.

Br Christoph

[Photon42]

On 10/10/2018 at 1:59 PM, TomLiles said:

Thinking about the Zeiss 120/4. 

I do use some Contax lenses on my S2, but not the 4/120. All sources say this lens is one of the reasons to buy into the C645 system. The thinking point here is the adapter. If you can source one cheap, it makes sense, but the adapter + lens is quite some money to shell out, if you do not plan to use other lenses with it. And - the big thing with the adapter is working autofocus and auto aperture. You not only use one lens, but then the only lens not using the full capability of the adapter. How about a Hasselblad V adapter and their 4/120 CF Macro?

[jip]

17 hours ago, TomLiles said:

Thanks Alan,

Can I ask a stupid question? I've not been in the S-sytem long (though wanted to be in it for so, so long) and never really read up on how the system deals with adapted lenses with leaf shutters... I'm guessing the HC lenses from Hasselblad have gold contacts and the s-adapter-h does too, so there is a route for the lens and body to talk => user puts the body in "CS" mode, and continues as normal; but what happens with Hasselblad v-system lenses with leaf shutters on the s-adpater-v? Can we use leaf shutters there too? Always wondered.

At any rate, thanks for the tip; I've noted the 120 HC Macro and will take a look.

Cheers Alan

With the Hasselblad or Contax adapters for Leica the aperture is controlled electrionically by the camera, also autofocus works fully. And in case of the Hasselblad H lenses the leaf shutter works too in CS mode, but only up to 1/750th (1/800 does not exist on the Leica S). The newer lenses have faster leaf shutters but I have not tried those so can't comment on if they work faster than 1/750th. The Leica CS lenses go to 1/1000th.

[darylgo]

17 hours ago, TomLiles said:

Thanks Alan,

Can I ask a stupid question? I've not been in the S-sytem long (though wanted to be in it for so, so long) and never really read up on how the system deals with adapted lenses with leaf shutters... I'm guessing the HC lenses from Hasselblad have gold contacts and the s-adapter-h does too, so there is a route for the lens and body to talk => user puts the body in "CS" mode, and continues as normal; but what happens with Hasselblad v-system lenses with leaf shutters on the s-adpater-v? Can we use leaf shutters there too? Always wondered.

At any rate, thanks for the tip; I've noted the 120 HC Macro and will take a look.

Cheers Alan

The leaf shutter on V lenses is locked open for use on the Leica S bodies, the lenses use a mechanical coupling for the leaf shutter and the S bodies use an electronic coupling therefore they're not electronically or mechanically compatible.  The lens shutter is simply ignored and locked open and rendered inoperable.  Hasselblad H and Contax 645 use the electronic coupling, Hasselblad V is mechanical.  This is reflected in the price of the adapters, the electronic coupling adapters costing more.  

[TomLiles]

Hi again Yevgeny,

Sorry for a late reply, I'm a freelancer so when work calls I have to devote most of my time to it; the economic peaks and valleys when working for yourself are pretty harsh, and you never know when the next big payday is coming, so when a stream of work comes in it's important to gun it and work as hard as possible and maximize revenue and sow seeds for future income. Tough business! But I love it and wouldn't do anything else, even if I could

What a shame about your Sinar equipment (my dream is to do work with Sinar P and Leica S systems), but I guess you can still reframe it in a positive light and see it as the opportunity to have gained this important experience with the S-system and adapting lenses. It's really valuable information, so thanks for sharing it with me, Yevgeny.

The s-adapter-c I had found at a good price was sold in the interim, so my chance to use the Contax 120/4 has disappeared for now. I definitely have eyes out for the 120 HC-II; I'm currently enquiring with a rental house here in Tokyo, who have the lens but not the s-adapter-h, to see if they can source me the s-to-h adapter so that I could rent the lens and adapter and give it a go. I have another accessory shoot next month and am hoping the rental guys can do something for me in time for that.

Thanks again for your words and help, Yevgeny, been a real service to me m(. .)m

Cheers

Tom

Edited October 20, 2018 by TomLiles

[TomLiles]

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Hi Christoph,

Thanks for your reply and my apologies for a postponed reply. As I mentioned to ynp, above, I've been busy on the work last couple weeks.

Unfortunately, the s-apater-c I'd found at a good price (to allow me to get the Contax lens, which are more readily sourced) has been sold in the interim, so my opportunity so give this equipment option a go, right now, has disappeared. Listening to the guys, the Hasselblad options (V-mount 120/4 or HC-II 120) are good ones in my case as I only need very close in performance and both Hasselblad optics sound as though they are optimized for that. I may be able to rent this option, and am looking forward to the chance to do that and test it out.

Thanks again, Christoph

Cheers. Tom

[TomLiles]

Hi Photon42,

Exactly right on the cost front. As mentioned to Christoph and Yevgeny above, the nice-price s-adapter-c I'd found has gone to someone else now, so the opportunity has disappeared in the interim... but for the best. I'm glad I checked in with you guys as there were more options than I knew about. It's all expensive stuff, but my experience in photography has typically been: more expensive stuff is better in the long run. There have been exceptions, of course. I'm OK with spending the hard-earned, and it was hard-going getting it! but what is of paramount importance is: does it make the ship go faster?

Thanks again Photon42, all this advice has been helpful.

Cheers. Tom

[TomLiles]

Hi again Jip,

My dumb question was about the dumb adapters, but we got to the bottom of it, so all's well.

Thanks again for your advice and information, it's all a great help.

Cheers. Tom

[TomLiles]

Hi again Daryl,

My apologies for a late reply; I could probably be better organized, but when work calls, as mentioned above, I usually need to devote time [my all important resource] to it. It may be a superstition, but I believe the more time and quality I put in to a customer's photographs the better the chances of good things coming back around to me: more work or referrals, etc. I'm a freelancer so live and die by small details (and maybe even the caprice of the universe). I also go by that old Andy Gove (former Intel CEO) adage "Stay Paranoid." I think the worst will happen unless I do my utmost to stave it off; I buy up them karma points with hard work and no enjoying Leica S talk on the Leica forum with you guys... seriously, this is the way my brain works!

I'm interested in both Hasselblad options, but after listening to Yevgeny, above, I'm interested in the HC option first and am trying to get a rental set up to give that a go. I have another accessory shoot for next month so am hoping to get something sorted in time for that. The dumb-mount Hasselblad V option sounds great to me too, as I only need the close up performance and shooting at speed (auto controls) is not a factor, but it'd probably be a buy-to-try option as no rental houses here are carrying much in the way of Hasselblad v-system (anymore) and Leica S-system s-adapter-v. Actually, it was a mission finding any rental house that would cater to the S-system at all here... it's seen as a rich amateur option in Japan and was way less popular than in Europe to begin with; rental potential is super low. That general lack of market interest is actually part of the reason I like the S-system for my work, it's one value-added thing I can say to customers. In all truth, no-one but experienced photographers really appreciates the difference between imaging systems and what those differences may mean for work, and that's of course OK, it'd be mad to expect the customer to have the knowledge of the professional (not having that knowledge is the premise on which a customer pays a professional in the first place!)... but in marketing, perception is a thousand times more important than reality, some marketers would even say perception is all that there is, so as long as the perception "different" holds for me because I use a different system camera to 99.9% of photographers I'm in competition with here, that's all I need wrt to talking to customers.

That, and a good macro optic for 1:1!

Thanks again Daryl, your advice and information has been a real help.

Cheers. Tom

Edited October 20, 2018 by TomLiles

[darylgo]

Hi Tom,

Gotta love this forum, the replies and your writings  as a pro are very enlightening.  With the many adapters available the options are numerous and the Hasselblad H sounds the best of all, avoiding the possible obsolescence of both the Hasselblad V and Contax 645.   

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I have a third way for you, and it may be less expensive or more so, depending on what you have around.  I have regularly shot macro on the S with a horseman view camera and a Sinar Hassleblad bayonet adapter. The adapter snaps in where the ground glass would be, and then I put the V mount adapter on the S and attach it to the view camera. From there I use either a 120mm Nikon 4x5 macro lens, or before I had one, I used reversed enlarging lenses (I just used the durst lens adapter as a retaining screw to hold the enlarging lens in place on a Sinar Copal 1 board. I used the shutter in the camera. This would take me well past 2 to 1, at which point depth of field and diffraction are more problematic than anything else. I have done this with the S, and with 4x5 as well. 

[TomLiles]

Thanks again Daryl—such a valuable place this forum. There is almost no reliable third party information / experience wrt the S-system on the web. I followed this forum and read all you guys for years before I could finally afford to take my dream and buy into the S-system. Bona-fide treasure trove, in my opinion! 👍

Cheers. Tom

Edited October 25, 2018 by TomLiles

[TomLiles]

Stuart, thank you for your reply. Sorry to respond so slowly, I have to ration my time carefully.

That is a great idea. Thanks, Stuart. I shoot 4x5 on an old TOYO Super Graphic (licensed remake of the Graflex Super Graphic), so I'd need a Graflok type back-to-H/C/M645/P67 (Hasselblad / Contax645 / Mamiya 645 / Pentax 67) type adapter to make it work with the LF body I have. I don't own any of those s-to-120mount adapters, so that's one thing; and I don't have an LF macro lens, but have a couple acquaintances who shoot 4x5 more seriously than me and would lend me theirs. So it'd just be a matter of adapting the S-body to the Super Graphic, so a couple bits to source. I don't know if there is an option to achieve the Graflok-to-120mount (that S can adapt to) out there, but as a technical solution [large format body, S as digital back] this is certainly on my radar.

Using the S-body as a digital back for a technical camera is a solid equipment goal of mine. My dream was to do work with the S-system and the Sinar P-system; the ownership of Sinar by Leica and the high integration between S and P-systems was a motivation for me to choose the S-system [and not aspire to Phase One or Hasselblad, or straight Canon / Nikon, etc., like almost all of the professionals around me]. I got half way there now, and am working hard to get the work and the money to justify a Sinar P-camera. With that in mind, if I can hang on until I get to the Sinar, then buying into adapters to use the S-body as a digital back would really make sense for me.

Thanks again for your help and advice, Stuart. As Daryl and I were just mentioning, gotta love this forum. All of these responses are much appreciated.

Cheers Stuart 👍

Tom

Edited October 25, 2018 by TomLiles

[John McMaster]

I wouldn't go for a Contax mount on the Graflok, you only need a cheap dumb adapter; so Hasselblad V, Mamiya 645 or Pentax 67 and get a Kipon or similar adapter rather then silver boxed Leica...

john

 

[Stuart Richardson]

I will also say that keep your expectations in check regarding sharpness etc. One big challenge is stability...even with the mirror locked up the S is using a shutter that vibrates...all the more so when it is hanging off the back of a big 4x5 camera. I have gotten around this mostly by using flash or longer exposures. The other main problem is diffraction and depth of field. Past 1 to 1 you will start to really lose DOF, and if you stop down, keep in mind that as increase magnification, your diffraction is equal to your EFFECTIVE f stop, not your actual one. So while you might have F/11 on the lens, you might have the diffraction of f/16 at 1:1 and f/22 at 2:1. The S starts showing softening at f/16 with most lenses, so keep this in mind. Rather than a dedicated LF macro, if you want to go very close, I might suggest a good enlarging lens, reversed. I did quite well with a 45mm APO componon and 90mm APO Componon. Even a good 50mm EL-Nikkor should do the trick, likely for less money than a dedicated lens. The reason I say this is that most LF macro lenses are 120mm and longer, which is overkill for covering the S sensor, and enlarging lenses are generally faster. It depends on how close you need to be though...you have a lot of built in flange to focal distance because of the adapters, so a 45mm lens will need 90mm to the sensor at 1:1...that might not be enough distance depending on your view camera/adapter configuration.

If you are just looking at normal distances, the 120mm macro lenses from Leica and Contax will likely do a better job. 

Edited October 25, 2018 by Stuart Richardson

[TomLiles]

Hi again John,

Absolutely. I haven't looked at whether there are actually any Graflok-back adaption routes that I could bolt an S-body onto at the other side, but if there were I would certainly only look at dumb adapters—exactly the mounts you mention.

I am hoping a rental house here can come through for me on an S-adapter-H, and then I can give the HC 120-II a run on a job shooting small accessories next month [getting ever closer now; if they don't have anything in a couple weeks I'll have to drop the idea, as I can't go into the shoot proper without having had a little time with the equipment beforehand]. At the moment this combo is my front runner for the 1:1 goal. The rental is a great chance for me, self-evidently, as both adapter and lens are pricey. But I was enthused by Yevgeny's good experience with that equipment and am looking forward to it. Even if it doesn't work out, it will have been a nice experience, I'm sure.

Anyway! Beer o'clock in Tokyo, John. Have a nice weekend.

Cheers. Tom

[TomLiles]

Hi again Stuart,

Understood re: using the S-body as a digital back. Thank you for this know-how. How do you find color-casting with the LF lenses? I have only read things online, so my knowledge is mostly second hand and so not worth a lot, but I understand that we have to be careful with lens selection (for casts) too when capturing with a digital back, especially an adapted digital camera body.

Re: shutter shock, the one thing I have in my favor, for this application, is that I'm shooting in the studio and ambient light is not a factor for almost all of the shots I'm doing; I could probably be at 1/30 and still have no ambient exposure. My lights have good-enough t.5 times, so my "strobe-shutter" should be quick enough to knock out most vibration-related blurring, i.e., the focal plane shutter, effectively, has no influence on my shots. I haven't had a problem with the S so far in this respect (I use an S2-P and S typ006). There's decent chance I'll want to drag the shutter and bleed a lot of ambient in for some of the images I'd like to make for the more creative poster-work, but doing this on a  4x5 with the S as a digital back is only a hypothetical at this point, so not worth worrying about.

The diffraction stuff was very helpful, Stuart, thank you. I haven't shot 1:1 enough to have practical-mastery over bellows effects and so on [my previous camera body was a Nikon, and Nikon tended to compensate for effective aperture with in-camera software, so the body would give a pretty good readout of what the effective aperture was]... and your info about lens selection was excellent: I have to thank you again. I see doing things this way as an opportunity to get some important photographic know-how down that I can use again and again. As I said, I am aiming toward using technical cameras day in and day out, so I want to, and as a matter of professional pride: need to, know the things you talked about inside out... I'll only get there by doing. (I began to dislike the user friendly automation in Nikons, etc., for work because they negated this opportunity to a degree; not a criticism of Nikon or making things easier for users, not at all... just a matter of preferences and ambitions. I came into photography late in my work-life and did not have the chance to apprentice to anyone or be taught the ropes; it is a disadvantage for me, in my opinion, and I have great respect for the craft and practical know-how that many professionals who did come up that route command. I want that high degree of craft and practical knowledge for myself too].

My first choice, which I'm hoping to get a rental organized for, is the HC 120-II that Yevgeny was using for his artwork repros. Both Hasselblad options sounded good to me, as my application requires 1:1 performance above all else, and both Hasselblad 120's offer that... I'll try the premo HC option first, assuming my rental works out, and depending how that goes, proceed from there.

The S-adapter-C I'd found which kicked this exploration off, disappeared in the interim, but that route, as an option, is still alive and well in my mind. I'm not rolling in money, so have to patiently watch for used equipment to come up and take my chances, or not, at those times that it does. So it could still be the Contax, in the end, for me. But I did learn one thing over the years: don't waste money on "cheaper" or "here now!" options just because they came up... I've found I usually ended up regretting the impatience and then paying, literally, twice for the mistake. So I've learned the hard way to get as much intel as I can, play it through in my head a bit, listen to my gut, listen to my heart too, of course, but above all else, if I'm going to buy something: it has to be 100% commit, and assume I am never going to sell it again. Or don't go there. Most of all: wait! (and the more you wait, the better prices usually get too). You never know until you know, we all know, but there's no harm being conservative when it comes to thousands of quid 

I'm happiest, at the moment, that the HC 120-II would be good for me, so looking forward to (fingers crossed) trying it.

I have a ton of other things to think about and try though, thanks to all of the advice here; yours of course, Stuart.

Have a good weekend.

Cheers

Tom

Edited October 26, 2018 by TomLiles

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[Irakly Shanidze]

I've done a lot of small product photography with APO-Makro-Planar 4/120, and there is no lens in medium format that does it better. Leica S006 works fine with Contax 645 bellows, and 4/120 mounted on the  bellows easily gets you 2:1 with perspective control, if needed. Obviously,  you do not get as much freedom as on a full 645 frame, but larger DOF compensates for it.

4/120 has the most beautiful bokeh. Check my article on Contax 645 lenses on Leica S, it has a food example very indicative of how this lens renders.