21mm framing with RF and 21 Lux vs 21 SEM

[ELAN]

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For years I’ve hesitated buying a 21mm lens because I use the RF exclusively and prefer not to use an EVF or LV.   This last year, however, I’ve had numerous situations where 28mm just wasn’t wide enough so I’m once again considering a 21mm lens.  I will use the RF and try to guesstimate the frame, and when using a tripod (which is rarely) I will frame with LV.

Have an affinity for Leica Summilux lenses the 21mm Summilux is my preferred option.  While I hear only praises for the 21 SEM, and I like its ergonomics, rendering and filter size, I’m afraid that f/3.4 might be too limiting for me (I shoot a lot of low light, and sometimes astro).  However, the 21 Lux seems huge and heavy and that’s putting me off, and the used prices seem low compare to other Summilux lenses, which sometimes indicate a lack of interest in the lens.

I would appreciate opinions on the following:

1. Do you use the RF to frame a 21mm lens? Does it work most of the time?

2.  How does the size/weight/handling of the 21 Lux compare to the 28 Lux (or 50 Noctilux f/1).

3. Is there much difference in image quality or rendering between the 21 Lux and 21 SEM?

Thanks…
 

[Exodies]

21 includes so much more than the RF that you may as well frame with your eyes shut. You can’t even rely on the non-shooting eye to show you the rest of what will be captured.

In my case, I bought an EVF to help focus 90mm in low light but always found it annoying. However after using the EVF with a 21 SEM I started to appreciate it and now enjoy focusing with RF then framing with EVF. The results are so pleasing that the inconvenience becomes negligible.

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[Guest]

„...the used prices seem low compare to other Summilux lenses, which sometimes indicate a lack of interest in the lens...“

 

This might be due to the Voigtlaender lens (that I know nothing about).

[oldwino]

How about using an OVF? You get used to it pretty quickly.

[250swb]

Get yourself and OVF, with a 21mm you don't need to focus it (use guesstimate DOF focusing) so all you need is something to give you an accurate frame. Anything will do, I use a standard plastic Voigtlander finder that I prefer to my 21mm Leica finder. Don't go with the 'use the outside of the camera viewfinder then add a bit' approach, that bit extra you see in a proper OVF gives a whole extra difference to the view of what you are getting in the actual frame. As for the lens itself, save yourself the money and buy a Zeiss 21mm Biogon f/2.8 (you can code it), only if you are shooting film and are fixed on an unmovable ISO will you need the extra half stop of a Summilux. 

Edited September 26, 2018 by 250swb

[Guest]

The 21 lux only seems heavy until you get used to it which did not take long.I used the 21 / 28 viewfinder ( 28 for using it on the M8 ) and find it easy to use.The only disadvantage is the price ,but then its a case of do you want F1.4 or not.Never used the SEM as previously I had the 21 f2.8 asph. which I traded when I bought the lux.Worth bearing in mind that the filters are series 8 which for some could be a problem.

[Guest]

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Just my 2 cents after owning the 21 & 28 Lux and the 21 SEM:

 

1. Do you use the RF to frame a 21mm lens? Does it work most of the time? Finder is obviously best but I've lost two of them and subsequently just estimated the edge of the frame. That worked Ok for me though I shoot street & reportage where the exact frame edges are maybe not so critical.

2.  How does the size/weight/handling of the 21 Lux compare to the 28 Lux (or 50 Noctilux f/1). The 21 Lux is noticeably heavier than the 28 Lux, and I needed a hand under the lens to support it. It's a long lens too, and doesn't balance on the camera so well. I much preferred the 28 Lux

3. Is there much difference in image quality or rendering between the 21 Lux and 21 SEM? The 21 SEM is an astonishing lens in my view with heaps of micro-contrast & crispness. I loved it and still regret selling it. The 21 Lux is ever so slightly softer in comparison though more flattering for faces.

Edited September 27, 2018 by Guest

[Mr.Q]

I'd suggest getting the 21 SEM for landscapes and the CV 21/1.8 for low light.  

[Ecar]

To the OP's questions:

 

1- Using the RF to guesstimate the FoV of a 21mm is a stretch too far IMO, unless it's pretty much your only lens and you learn how to pre-visualize the scene. And if you end up cropping the image anyway, why not use a 24mm (the frame is somewhat easier to visualize using the edges of the RF) or a 28mm in the first place? I use either the EVF or a Voigtlander OVF with my 21mm lenses.

 

2- The 21/1.4 is substantially longer/heavier than the 28/1.4. And, indeed, it doesn't balance nearly as well.

 

3- The Summilux has a more "classic" rendering (and more distortion). The SEM is very "modern", sharp and contrasty. I have both, and use the Summilux only in very low light or if I know I will want to isolate the subject.

 

Bottom line: the 21/1.4 is one of the most specialized Leica lenses available, which probably explains the low demand. I have no experience with the CV 21/1.8, but I have read only positive reviews - not sure about size and handling vs. the Summilux, but definitely more budget-friendly...

[MarkP]

 

 

To the OP's questions:

 

1- Using the RF to guesstimate the FoV of a 21mm is a stretch too far IMO, unless it's pretty much your only lens and you learn how to pre-visualize the scene. And if you end up cropping the image anyway, why not use a 24mm (the frame is somewhat easier to visualize using the edges of the RF) or a 28mm in the first place? I use either the EVF or a Voigtlander OVF with my 21mm lenses.

 

2- The 21/1.4 is substantially longer/heavier than the 28/1.4. And, indeed, it doesn't balance nearly as well.

 

3- The Summilux has a more "classic" rendering (and more distortion). The SEM is very "modern", sharp and contrasty. I have both, and use the Summilux only in very low light or if I know I will want to isolate the subject.

 

Bottom line: the 21/1.4 is one of the most specialized Leica lenses available, which probably explains the low demand. I have no experience with the CV 21/1.8, but I have read only positive reviews - not sure about size and handling vs. the Summilux, but definitely more budget-friendly...

 

Agree with this completely

[darylgo]

21 lux suffers coma with astrophotography at f1.4, perhaps stopped down it's ok. I gave up with Leica for astrophotography due to LENR/iso-shutter speed limits and use a Canon instead.

[Narsuitus]

I would appreciate opinions on the following:

 

1. Do you use the RF to frame a 21mm lens? Does it work most of the time?

 

 

When using my 21mm Summilux lens, I normally use the viewfinder of the rangefinder to frame, compose, and focus. I make sure that the important subject matter is captured within the viewfinder and that the straight lines are horizontal and/or vertical. I perform a very tight frame on my subject and rest assured that the 21mm lens will provide additional space around my subject.

 

When I need more framing accuracy, I use a Contax accessory viewfinder to help me frame and compose.

 

35mm Rangefinders by Narsuitus, on Flickr

[gyoung]

Get yourself and OVF, with a 21mm you don't need to focus it (use guesstimate DOF focusing) so all you need is something to give you an accurate frame. Anything will do, I use a standard plastic Voigtlander finder that I prefer to my 21mm Leica finder. Don't go with the 'use the outside of the camera viewfinder then add a bit' approach, that bit extra you see in a proper OVF gives a whole extra difference to the view of what you are getting in the actual frame. As for the lens itself, save yourself the money and buy a Zeiss 21mm Biogon f/2.8 (you can code it), only if you are shooting film and are fixed on an unmovable ISO will you need the extra half stop of a Summilux.

I used this all the time with the M6 and 21, external optical finder and scale focussing for landscapes outdoors is quick and easy.

I still sometimes use the 21 finder on the Xpro2 with the 14 like this, on mf using the scale.

 

Gerry

[Ernstk]

I use my 21/2.8 Elmarit for around 80% of my photos on my M-P 240.

 

I don't want to use an external viewfinder for street photography so I guestimate the FOV from the rangefinder view. It's surprising how quickly you can adapt to this with reasonable accuracy.

 

For landscapes or other work where speed isn't important but accuracy is,  I use Live View.

 

Ernst

[ianman]

I have been using the 21mm Elmarit for years and more recently I got a Super-Angulon 3.4 and don't own an OVF. I find guessing relatively easy and surprisingly accurate. Of course it's even easier and more accurate with an OVF, but I've just never got round to buying one.

[Exodies]

Guessing the frame of a wide lens - you prolly have all you really want in the viewfinder, the rest will come to your picture as background.

[xrogers]

I didn't find using the built-in finder with a 21 acceptable, and like both (M240) EVF and optical external finders.

 

For practicality, the EVF finder is unbeatable, and is what I use today. If you decide to go with an optical finder, the Zeiss 21 finder is fantastic. I've kept mine to use on the EVF-only camera I keep not buying.

[jrp]

This comparison http://www.ronscheffler.com/techtalk/?page_id=130 remains pertinent. For landscapes the slower lens is hard to beat. For indoors / background renderings the faster summilux can produce exquisite photos, at the expense of weight, edge sharpness and purple fringing.

[semi-ambivalent]

...a proper OVF gives a whole extra difference to the view of what you are getting in the actual frame.

So very much this. Especially in light of the pseudo-equation of 'cropping to <some longer focal length>'. 21s are definitely in this territory, and I use a 28mm OVF as well. Have a 35mm too but, although it's there, meh.

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[bocaburger]

I have the EVF for my M240, as well as there's LV with the rear screen, but I prefer using an OVF as I have done for almost 50 years, unless I am traveling with more than one focal length outside the realm of the finder frames.  Then I put up with the blackout of LV/EVF in deference to not doing a juggling act with OVF's.