New Panasonic Full Frame with SL Mount?

[RomeoBravo]

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A foveon sensor with SL lens would potentially be staggeringly good. Assuming it’s ever created! I used to own a Sigma DP Merrill. I didn’t like the Sigma software to process the raw files, but the colour depth and tonal rendering was in a very different league to anything I’ve experienced from CMOS sensors. Foveon sensor produced layer on layer of colour depth that was beautiful, like looking at a E6 slide on a light box.

Agree 100%.  Add Panasonic DFD AF and it would be an instant buy.

Did you catch this:

Kazuto Yamaki confirms Sigma is going to make a Full Frame L-mount camera with Foveon sensor!

https://www.l-rumors.com/kazuto-yamaki-confirms-sigma-is-going-to-make-a-full-frame-l-mount-camera-with-foveon-sensor/

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[supermouse]

I am super excited about this latest development. I need a tele-zoom lens with built in optical stabiliser, and the current VE90-280 is just too heavy to lug around. I am hoping the new Panasonic L 70-200 f2.8 would have built in Optical Stabiliser, then my set up would be complete.

Current set-up

SL typ 601

SL VE 24-90

Novoflex EOS/SL adapter

Sigma Art 14-24 f2.8 EOS mount

[Ingo]

 current VE90-280 is just too heavy to lug around. I am hoping the new Panasonic L 70-200 f2.8 would have built in Optical Stabiliser, then my set up would be complete.

 

I cannot imagine that it is significantly lighter. The 70-200 competitors give approx 200 - 250 g difference. 

[Chaemono]

Hi There Martin

The SL does use thinner sensor glass (as the T, TL and CL do).

 

But you don't need thinner sensor glass for SL lenses, and therefore there would be no need for Panasonic to do this. . . and therefore it wouldn't allow good usage of M lenses

Thinner cover glass has a number of disadvantages (makes dust on sensor much more obvious, causes difficulty with IR pollution, weaker, more expensive). I can't see why Panasonic would spend time and money and grief making it easier for M lenses to work (thus meaning they sell less Panasonic lenses and gain no more money).

 

I also completely disagree with you that it means the SL line is pretty much dead - absolutely the contrary. Leica will not be producing clones of Panasonic cameras - they will be designing their own cameras with shared technology (just as Panasonic have - look at that viewfinder, looks just like the one from the SL). The SL2 should be made in Germany with Leica's own body design and the application of "The Essence". What it will share with Panasonic is AF technology (perhaps the SL does this too?), Base sensor technology (if not cover glass) Image stabilisation and other technologies that Leica cannot duplicate in house.

 

I think you can be sure that the SL2 looks nothing like the S1, and has it's own special features and Leica DNA.

 

best

That’s perfect. Leave some business for Kolari Vision to do thin filter stack modifications on those FF Panasonic cameras.

[Martin B]

Hi There Martin

The SL does use thinner sensor glass (as the T, TL and CL do).

 

But you don't need thinner sensor glass for SL lenses, and therefore there would be no need for Panasonic to do this. . . and therefore it wouldn't allow good usage of M lenses

Thinner cover glass has a number of disadvantages (makes dust on sensor much more obvious, causes difficulty with IR pollution, weaker, more expensive). I can't see why Panasonic would spend time and money and grief making it easier for M lenses to work (thus meaning they sell less Panasonic lenses and gain no more money).

 

I also completely disagree with you that it means the SL line is pretty much dead - absolutely the contrary. Leica will not be producing clones of Panasonic cameras - they will be designing their own cameras with shared technology (just as Panasonic have - look at that viewfinder, looks just like the one from the SL). The SL2 should be made in Germany with Leica's own body design and the application of "The Essence". What it will share with Panasonic is AF technology (perhaps the SL does this too?), Base sensor technology (if not cover glass) Image stabilisation and other technologies that Leica cannot duplicate in house.

 

I think you can be sure that the SL2 looks nothing like the S1, and has it's own special features and Leica DNA.

 

best

 

It is possible - even I don't think that Leica itself will continue the current path regarding MLCs. Just look from a consumer perspective - if Leica continues to make and sell SL type cameras for $7K and Panasonic makes clones (or very similar models with some differences) for $3-4K, which one do you think will be purchased more often? For me the decision would be very easy at this point.....Kaufmann likely simply made the benefit vs. debit bill and rightfully concluded that it is better to attract more customers with a lower priced Panasonic camera but then still selling the higher priced Leica lens gear. The high price for Leica digital MLC cameras simply didn't fit the bill anymore and was no longer sustainable for Leica's future.

So far for me the high res Panasonic MLC is the best offer of all of the other recently released MLCs. It might very well be my next digital camera update after more reviews especially about functionality with M lenses come in.

And Leica "DNA" and application of "The Essence"?! Really...? I never believe marketing terminology and just look at the specs instead. Brand names never mattered to me either.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Martin B

[jaapv]

That’s perfect. Leave some business for Kolari Vision to do thin filter stack modifications on those FF Panasonic cameras.

  With the same result: because of the different microlens technology it won't quite reach SL levels

[LocalHero1953]

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..........................................

I think you can be sure that the SL2 looks nothing like the S1, and has it's own special features and Leica DNA.

.............

Perhaps the SL2 will have a family resemblance to the S? (as Dr Kaufmann said - "more elegant").

That would be nice!

[lct]

That’s perfect. Leave some business for Kolari Vision to do thin filter stack modifications on those FF Panasonic cameras.

 

Little point to prefer modded Pannys over modded Sonys then as the L mount has too long a register (20mm vs 18mm) to fit close focus adapters a la VM-E let alone autofocus ones a la Techart. My postpone of the Kolari mod A73 won't last long i suspect unless the SL2 proves to be significantly smaller than the SL which i doubt but i have no info about that.

[wildlightphoto]

Finally a more affordable MLC camera with high res sensor AND hopefully working with M glass. 

 

 

and IBIS

[lct]

  With the same result: because of the different microlens technology it won't quite reach SL levels

 

You mean it would exceed them i guess. The thinness of the sensor stack plays a major role than microlenses i my modest experience but i have none with the SL. Do you know how it works with difficult M wides like SA 21/3.4? Just curious as i remain interested in the SL2 in case it would be smaller than the SL. I don't hold my breath though...

[Tailwagger]

Hmm... I'll admit that my 'damn the L-Mount there will never be an adapter between my M glass and the sensor' rule has been shaken a little.  With the S raising the MP bar to 64, hard to imagine the next SL wont be the same ballpark as Panasonics announced 47.   

 

I do wonder, Jono's comments not withstanding,  if I don't smell a shift though.  Forgetting about the performance of M glass for a moment, there would have to be an tremendous amount of value add to get me to spend $7K for an SL2 over $4K for an S1R or a Sigma. It's hard to imagine just what those features might be. And while I would likely be willing to spend up for Leica optics, its not at all likely I'd pay a similar premium for roughly equivalent bodies.  The next SL might not be a simple rebadge, but I have to believe that the pricing is more crucial than ever given the optics can now jump ship.  

[IkarusJohn]

...  Forgetting about the performance of M glass for a moment, there would have to be an tremendous amount of value add to get me to spend $7K for an SL2 over $4K for an S1R or a Sigma. It's hard to imagine just what those features might be. And while I would likely be willing to spend up for Leica optics, its not at all likely I'd pay a similar premium for roughly equivalent bodies.  The next SL might not be a simple rebadge, but I have to believe that the pricing is more crucial than ever given the optics can now jump ship.

 

This is what I don’t understand about the Sigma+Leica+Panasonic L mount sharing arrangement. While I love my SL, and would buy it again, many (most?) in the camera market are spec readers (see Martin - not much will induce them to buy an expensive Leica with too few mega-pickles and last year’s technology, no matter how good the product is in reality. They’re too busy examining their images at 200% for detail and sharpness to stand back and admire the whole picture.

 

I hope Leica makes money from each Panasonic and Sigma lens and camera sold using the L mount under the licensing agreement.

[jonoslack]

 

And Leica "DNA" and application of "The Essence"?! Really...? I never believe marketing terminology and just look at the specs instead. Brand names never mattered to me either.

 

 

 Forgetting about the performance of M glass for a moment, there would have to be an tremendous amount of value add to get me to spend $7K for an SL2 over $4K for an S1R or a Sigma. It's hard to imagine just what those features might be. And while I would likely be willing to spend up for Leica optics, its not at all likely I'd pay a similar premium for roughly equivalent bodies.  The next SL might not be a simple rebadge, but I have to believe that the pricing is more crucial than ever given the optics can now jump ship.  

 

 

Like lots of us I spend hours every day with my camera. I don't just look at the specs, I'm much much more interested in the experience of shooting. I don't want 26 pages of menus or 63 buttons. I actually like the Panasonic cameras (especially the G9), but comparing the shooting experience with either an M10 or an SL is just a joke. 

 

I just don't think that people who buy Leica cameras do it on the basis of specifications. Sure, Leica aren't going to sell as many L mount cameras as Panasonic, but I'm willing to bet they'll sell more SL2s than they ever sold SLs (and that is the point isn't it?)

[IkarusJohn]

I hope you’re right, Jono. It’s quite a gamble.

Edited September 25, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[jonoslack]

This is what I don’t understand about the Sigma+Leica+Panasonic L mount sharing arrangement. While I love my SL, and would buy it again, many (most?) in the camera market are spec readers (see Martin - not much will induce them to buy an expensive Leica with too few mega-pickles and last year’s technology, no matter how good the product is in reality. They’re too busy examining their images at 200% for detail and sharpness to stand back and admire the whole picture.

 

I hope Leica makes money from each Panasonic and Sigma lens and camera sold using the L mount under the licensing agreement.

 

Well John

As long as Leica stick to the plot, with minimalist controls and bullet proof bodies . . and of course the great thing about this arrangement is that the bodies really shouldn't be using last year's technology. I think they'll sell more SL2's than they ever sold SLs . . . although of course nothing like as many as Panasonic do. I think there are quite enough photographers who value the shooting experience and ergonomics to sell just as many cameras as Leica need. 

[jonoslack]

I hope you’re right, Jono. It’s quite a gamble.

Well, Hell, Leica are still selling D-Luxs at a premium price long after Panasonic gave up with the LX-100 . . . . and I'm quite sure the SL2 will be no clone.

[Chaemono]

I'm so glad this alliance came to fruition for the people who can't afford the Leica SL nor new SL lenses. Hopefully, they can buy second hand lenses and now use them on a cheaper body with great specs. There will be more users on this forum to share their genuine experiences with the outstanding SL lenses.

[IkarusJohn]

Good point.

 

Speaking purely for myself (usually a safe thing to do), the availability of an L mount Panasonic or Sigma camera probably wouldn’t change my purchasing decisions. I have a cupboard full of Leica equipment to prove that point ...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[darylgo]

The L Mount is a bit of genius if there is some truth that the SL never sold well to begin with.  I can't cite any reference but rather the price drop plus the trade in for an M9 sensor corrosion and a few other tidbits make me think it has poor sales. 

[Chaemono]

It probably had poor sales because the sensor was a bit dated and no IBIS. The EVF and the feeling of shooting the SL were the best part about it and why many who had bought it still used it. I stopped using it because the M10 sensor and the files were just better. It was almost a shame because the SL lenses are exceptional. I also stopped buying SL lenses, except the 90 Summicron-SL, because I figured it would be more expensive next year when I would revisit the SL.