Nikon Z6, Z7 and Leica SL ..... (merged)

[jaapv]

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The Z has a VF with 3.69 million pixels. The SL has 4.4 million.

 

The SL also has great viewfinder optics (glass lenses, well corrected). Don't know about the Z, but many EVF cameras use cheap VF optics, which makes it harder to see the screen sharply.

 

Of course, numbers aren't everything. VF lag is a big issue, as are brightness, colour accuracy, contrast, etc.

Is that a Leica M I see on the shelf?

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[LD_50]

I keep reading comments about the Z cameras performing well with adapted wide angle lenses due to the large mount diameter. I assume this is referencing M lenses.

 

The mount diameter will not improve performance, given the distance from lens to sensor will match the original camera’s. The same ray angle issues will exist regardless of the larger mount. Sensor glass thickness and missing micro lenses will leave the same performance intact on the Z as is found on any other camera not designed for M lenses.

[jaapv]

The mount diameter has absolutely no influence on the performance of wideangle lenses, provided it meets a minimum width.  An adapter will reduce the mouth width of the camera to the size of the adapted  lens mount anyway. So these comments are absolute nonsense.

 

The problems we are seeing with adapted (Leica) lenses have to do with the exit angle of the rays and the acceptance angle of the sensor (microlenses).  It all depends on the thickness of the filter stack of Nikon's sensor and the design of the microlenses in conjunction with the architecture of the sensels.

[antigallican]

Does off camera flash work in manual mode only or metered? If metered hats off.

 

Back to SL vs Z7 aregument; slight nod to latest lightweight Nikkor 500mm AF which can also be used with TC and avoidance of moire when shooting birds for instance may be attractive to some.

 

Principal strength of Leica is quality optics however canon and Nikon come with bigger range of specialist optics.

 

 

Metered? Do you mean some form of TTL? No, I mean I use them as optical slaves. Alternatively the Nissin Air commander controls them. But of course no HSS, no TTL etc.

[mmradman]

Metered? Do you mean some form of TTL? No, I mean I use them as optical slaves. Alternatively the Nissin Air commander controls them. But of course no HSS, no TTL etc.

Yes, by metered I meant TTL as you would expect from fully integrated system.

If I understand you correctly camera mounted flash operate remote flash but all output settings are manual, I can do that with my SL and remote Nikon flash via cheap Chinese master-slave trigger, I think it is called Yongnuo.

[waterlenz]

The mount diameter has absolutely no influence on the performance of wideangle lenses, provided it meets a minimum width.  An adapter will reduce the mouth width of the camera to the size of the adapted  lens mount anyway. So these comments are absolute nonsense.

 

The problems we are seeing with adapted (Leica) lenses have to do with the exit angle of the rays and the acceptance angle of the sensor (microlenses).  It all depends on the thickness of the filter stack of Nikon's sensor and the design of the microlenses in conjunction with the architecture of the sensels.

Very nice reply!! All I could was laugh.

BTW I have a Z6 on order and will be trying my M lenses on it once adapters become available, as well as some vintage MF Nikkors. I ordered it with the kit zoom mostly for economic reasons (lens more expensive alone) but will get some or all of the 1.8 lenses once the camera "checks out" - i.e., not another M8 experience. The 1.8 lenses appear to be Nikon's "Summicrons" from the MTFs and verbiage. I.e., the best lenses in their focal lengths, at least that was Leica's philosophy (from vintage ads). This was back when the 35, 50, and 90s were the only Summicrons.

[lx1713]

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....

 

Does the new Nikon Z offers me anything I need that the SL doesn't give me, or anything that betters any of the points above?

....

 

Vieri

 

Thanks, Vieri.

 

I don't see why I should give up the SL, as good as the new Z cameras probably are  , Leica optics are fundamentally too good to give up.

 

I like Nikons , they are a photographer's camera manufacturer. The innovation curve for mirrorless is going go up steeply because of the convergence of features and differentiation is going to be important. Their dot sight accessory for super telephotos is pretty innovative to me.

 

Leica is still in a pretty nice place with just a few gaps I'm not too thrilled with. I feel they have much better upside potential because they're small.

Edited August 28, 2018 by lx1713

[LD_50]

Dot sights for cameras have been around for some time. Olympus has had one available for years.

[saxo]

Stills and video are going to merge. Video in raw format. This is the next step I guess.

 

Maybe Canons mirrorless camera will have more video features, as they are already producing cams. Probably the SL2 may benefit from Panasonic. But Nikon? Are they supported by Sony?

[bags27]

this guy's pretty ecstatic about the video capabilities of the Z:

 

[jmahto]

Canon is long gone. Canon 5D IV is way behind Nikon 850. Canon 1dx Mark II is probably the only good pro model as Canon has nothing to compare with Nikon D750 or Nikon D500. Canon 5DSR is also now 4-5 years old. But I am sure they will bounce back soon enough.

 

Sony is the one which is under threat from Nikon.

Highlight mine... 

I don't see how. Sony has better battery life, better lenses and dual card slot. The only thing better in Nikon is weather sealing.

 

This mirrorless is only to get Nikon users excited.. but even for them, why won't they use D850 instead!! I am scratching my head.

 

Edit: I read later that battery life life is not bad. Cross that out.

Edited August 29, 2018 by jmahto

[sdw]

Hah, "Canon is long gone". That's a rather out-of-touch comment if I've ever seen one. 

 

Photography is a long game. You can't just put out three generations of mirrorless and suddenly be the king. People build lenses and gear for a decade+. Canon is, through the solid incremental updates and vast collection of its products and services, the absolute king amongst photographers. Nothing else even comes close. Sony is scratching at the enthusiast market and making inroads with pros, but they're still nowhere near Canon's dominance. Do you ever go out to events? Talk to lots of professional photographers? 

 

I think Canon is definitely dragging their feet — no doubt institutional inertia because of their fear of cannibalizing their business-defining SLR lineup — but there's not a ton of them to fear, for now. They'll be out with a mirrorless this year or the next, and their dominance will go on for a long time. 

[Vieri]

Thanks, Vieri.

 

I don't see why I should give up the SL, as good as the new Z cameras probably are  , Leica optics are fundamentally too good to give up.

 

I like Nikons , they are a photographer's camera manufacturer. The innovation curve for mirrorless is going go up steeply because of the convergence of features and differentiation is going to be important. Their dot sight accessory for super telephotos is pretty innovative to me.

 

Leica is still in a pretty nice place with just a few gaps I'm not too thrilled with. I feel they have much better upside potential because they're small.

 

 

You are welcome. 

 

"Leica optics are fundamentally too good to give up" This is exactly what it all boils down to, for me.

 

"I like Nikons  , they are a photographer's camera manufacturer." I was a long-time Nikon user, and I do like Nikons too - or, I like their history, and their role in the history of photography. Since the advent of digital, however, they didn't impress me much if at all. They kept making good cameras, of course, but they have never been innovating: basically, they replaced film with a sensor, and kept improving AF, metering and stuff. Period. So did Canon, by the way. They kept playing the old game against each other, basically, and failed to see the importance of what Fuji, Sony and even Olympus / Panasonic with 4/3 did to bring photography into the future with smaller sensors, EVF, mirrorless, etc etc.

 

As far as innovation, Nikon got the importance of the mirrorless revolution now, which is way too late, and their best claim to "out-of-the-box thinking" is what, the DF?

 

As it has been said in this thread, the Z6 / Z7 is thrilling for existing Nikon users, but I seriously doubt that any Sony / Fuji / Leica / Pentax / Olympus users will switch over to Nikon thanks to the Z6 / Z7.

 

Best regards,

 

Vieri

[jrp]

I agree with you, Vieri.  The jury is still out on the new Nikkors. These new cameras may stem the flow of (older) Nikon users to Sony or Fuji (or, dare I say it, Leica), but there is not enough here to attract new users with an existing investment in Nikon glass.

[bags27]

I'm not a Nikon fan-boy, though I might appear to be given my posts on the other side of this discussion. But...

 

I just read the lead Nikon engineer claim that the Z6/7 with 5 stabilization points which match up with the same in the new lenses mean that you can handhold at ONE SECOND! Combine that with Nikon's industry-leading high ISO (they claim usable at 250,000, but honestly the 64000 images seem fine to me, but not after that), and you can essentially shoot handheld in the dark.

 

There are a great number of really exciting innovations in the Z6/7 that are under-appreciated because of the one slot controversy and the autofocus problems in the pre-production software. Nikon also promises a pro Z the equivalent of their D5. That they can produce the 850, which might be the best dSLR ever, shows they have the chops to get this very right very quickly.

 

So, while I certainly don't think it's an existential threat to Leica mirrorless, I do believe that a lot of us Leica owners will start having Nikon-envy pretty soon.

Edited August 29, 2018 by bags27

[frame-it]

nope....under-appreciated on this forum...as this thread is simply on the wrong forum

 

 

 

 

There are a great number of really exciting innovations in the Z6/7 that are under-appreciated because of the one slot controversy and the autofocus problems in the pre-production software.

Edited August 29, 2018 by frame-it

[Chaemono]

So, while I certainly don't think it's an existential threat to Leica mirrorless, I do believe that a lot of us Leica owners will start having Nikon-envy pretty soon.

The big market to take share from is the DSLR market. So it can’t be an existential threat to Leica mirrorless, yet. This is actually good for all mirrorless players because one of the big DSLR players, whose market it is to loose, decided to cannibalize himself instead of being cannibalized, finally. It lends more credibility to the argument that mirrorless is the future.

 

Nikon-envy? I don’t think so. Sensors are just semiconductors, competitors eventually catch up as the speed of innovation slows down. IBIS? Maybe, if SL2 doesn’t have it. EVF? No way. This leaves the lenses. Leica users will argue that not only are the SL lenses outstanding, they create a distinct look. Purely subjective many times.

[dkCambridgeshire]

Leica Camera AG was almost 3 years ahead of Nikon when the SL 601 was announced and since that time has very likely been working on the SL2 which could, in its own unique Leica way of doing/designing, be more than the equal of Nikon's initial FF mirrorless offerings. The Nikon Z6/7 will likely be superseded within 2 years by whatever Nikon is currently developing for their next 'entry level mirrorless' … and almost certainly superseded by their first pro-spec. mirrorless ICL cameras. Given that 'camera assembly companies' use so many third party components (e.g., EVFs) for their camera designs, it's quite likely that each marque has a very good idea of what their competitors are working on and which third parties are supplying them with components and technologies. The third party component manufacturers likely offer their latest technologies to all the camera designers/assemblers … e.g. in the past Epson offered the same EVFs to both Olympus and Leica … and Sony offer and sell sensors to several other camera manufacturers i.e. their competitors (including Leica). It's not so different to e.g. Swiss watch manufacturers / assemblers all using the same basic ébauches but tweaking same in-house to 'create' what appear to be unique movements and complications … but which are basically the 'same engines'. Leica Camera AG, the 'little man' APS/FF designer /assembler tends to produce less complicated cameras than the Far East manufacturers' mass market all singing / dancing, sooner to be obsolete, offerings. Leica will likely continue to 'plod' its innovative way with essentially 'essence' offerings … rather than try and take on the bigger three and try and beat them at their own game. And Leica Camera AG's'essence' products will thus continue to satisfy its own market sector .., which includes all us Leica enthusiasts … who value something not so 'run of the mill' … but still capable of being used 'professionally'. And long may this continue ... regardless of the new mirrorless kids on the block transient introductions.  

 

dunk 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[mmradman]

Leica made history by producing innovative compact cameras in early 1920s and Nikon made name for itself in early 1950s with good lenses, the story of Korean War and David Douglas Duncan.

 

What is the situation today? Nikon is second largest camera system manufacturer while Leica is somewhere close to the bottom of the ranking table. Both companies produce cameras and associated lenses and other accessories in keeping with market ranking. As much as L lenses are amazing and SL is compatible with M, R and few others it seems new Z range already offer features we sort of expect in next SL and at some pretty good price. Despite limited initial native lenses system is compatible with pretty much all of F mount, over 300, manual lenses have aperture automated (can R-L adapter do that), plus all AF optics with motors built into lens will focus on Z7/6. Dedicated Nikon’s flash system is second to none. For those not familiar with Nikon it covers 8 to 800mm range in AF plus teleconvertors, plus specialist Tilt shift lenses.

 

I have no Nikon envy, I have 9 M lenses plus few R lenses that work perfectly on SL. Once I identify need for range that Leica doesn’t provide at more reasonable price I’ll just buy from Nikon. Btw D850 with same sensor as Z7 even with dirt cheap Nikkor F 50mm f1.8 AFS (cost like Leica filter) produces outstanding images.

[BernardC]

This is actually good for all mirrorless players because one of the big DSLR players, whose market it is to loose, decided to cannibalize himself instead of being cannibalized, finally.

The new Nikons validate the very concept of the SL. Remember when the SL came out? People were wondering "who is it for?", "if it's mirrorless, why are the lenses so big?", "why didn't they just release an M with a viewfinder?"

The fact that Nikon, and soon Canon are releasing similar products makes the SL an easier sell.