Thorsten von Overgaard at the Leica Society AGM 28/04/2018

[dkCambridgeshire]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I think that although we're just joking about OTs jacket, and I added to the conversation, I think it's all a bit inappropriate. We are doing this at the expense of another member. Furthermore, the elephant-hide issue is behind us as we achieved our desired outcome.

 

Perhaps these posts (including mine) should be removed.

 

Mark

 

 

 

… or moved to Barnack's Bar … Where those who criticise loudest can consider the fact that there is one rule for them when they enjoy their exotic leather products e.g. in their lavish 'leather upholstered' cars … and also enjoy their photo safari holiday trips partly enabled by e.g. African elephant management … but they advocate different rules for others whom they condemn for enjoying other exotic leather products … even though those they condemn have obtained their leather goods from legitimate and sustainable sources. 

 

Consider also the exotic skins used by Leica Camera AG for covering their special edition cameras e.g. Ostrich and Karung leathers  … which forum members do not criticise … in fact some embrace same and collect them … partly because of their texture and tactility . 

 

" 'Pot' and 'kettle' "  come to mind … also, " …. 'glass houses' …  and 'stones' " 

 

dunk 

Edited April 30, 2018 by dkCambridgeshire

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[MarkP]

Don’t follow your “QED” there, Dunk.

 

Elephants are, in Africa, wild animals sometimes managed, more often slaughtered illegally in the wild for their ivory and illegally traded to buyers with no conscience or remorse.

 

Water buffalo are largely domestic animals, raised, used and managed much like cows, slaughtered (preferrably) in a controlled environment and their meat, milk and hides traded legally to buyers, you could argue, also with no conscience.

 

I guess the common thread is animal killed for profit, which is another thing altogether ... Elephants have been endangered, and remain so in certain areas (I’d hazard most of their habitat); I hadn’t heard of water buffalo being endangered or on any illegal trade lists or the like.

 

You can, I’m sure with some justification, argue that water buffalo are mistreated in some parts of the world. We have water buffalo here, and they are raised like cows, horses or any other live stock subject to legal protection (other than being slaughtered, of course).

 

Cheers

John

 

Edit - MarkP cross posted. He’s right of course, but this discussion, and TvO’s jacket, are more entertaining. As usual, I don’t mind my posts being deleted.

Agree on all these points, including the last sentence :-)

[IkarusJohn]

… or moved to Barnack's Bar … Where those who criticise loudest can consider the fact that there is one rule for them when they enjoy their exotic leather products e.g. in their lavish 'leather upholstered' cars … and also enjoy their photo safari holiday trips partly enabled by e.g. African elephant management … but they advocate different rules for others whom they condemn for enjoying other exotic leather products … even though those they condemn have obtained their leather goods from legitimate and sustainable sources... 

 

Who's doing that?

 

The point has always been that there is no legitimate sourcing of elephant hide because it legitimises illegal sourcing.  I don't know how you make the leap to all "exotic" leather from that.  My ostrich skin cover on my Monochrom is "ostrich print" - not the same thing at all.

 

This looks like a straw man, Dunk - you're arguing with yourself.

[pedaes]

Dunk - to stay with facts on this Leica Forum, Leica is on record making it clear their 'exotic' leathers are all printed patterns on standard leather.

[dkCambridgeshire]

I'm incorrect about the Leica body leather and apologise for the misleading post … I was under the assumption that the M6 Titanium used real ostrich skin covering.

 

dunk 

[wattsy]

You can speak for yourself, Dunk, but if I choose to criticise those who use the skins from endangered animals (whether sourced legally or illegally) or, for that matter, the skins from exotic non-endangered animals that are not otherwise farmed for their meat, etc., I can and will do so with a clear conscience. I'm sure the same applies to many others here.

 

… or moved to Barnack's Bar … Where those who criticise loudest can consider the fact that there is one rule for them when they enjoy their exotic leather products e.g. in their lavish 'leather upholstered' cars … and also enjoy their photo safari holiday trips partly enabled by e.g. African elephant management … but they advocate different rules for others whom they condemn for enjoying other exotic leather products … even though those they condemn have obtained their leather goods from legitimate and sustainable sources. 

 

Consider also the exotic skins used by Leica Camera AG for covering their special edition cameras e.g. Ostrich and Karung leathers  … which forum members do not criticise … in fact some embrace same and collect them … partly because of their texture and tactility . 

 

" 'Pot' and 'kettle' "  come to mind … also, " …. 'glass houses' …  and 'stones' " 

 

dunk 

[Guest]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Dunk - you will never win.

 

You posted a picture in all good faith to show T von O at the Leica event, totally innocuous and absolutely valid to post. You have now been forced into a defensive position that is entirely unjustified just for trying to add to the forum.

 

If I were you I wouldn't even bother in future - maybe just stick to commenting from the sidelines and not trying to make this forum more interesting by trying to and sadly setting yourself up to be attacked.

 

I have had my fair share of this treatment and I no longer feel the desire to start a thread for fear that it will be misinterpreted and just lead to a volley of attacks. Now don't get me wrong I have absolutely no problem with defending myself or my position but that usually means that the thread is threatened with closure or even more rancour - so best to not even bother.

 

Regards Paul Mac

my centaments two.

Neil

[wattsy]

Dunk forced himself into a "defensive position". It was his choice to go off on some rant about luxury leather seats and expensive safaris and accuse people he doesn't know of hypocrisy.

Edited May 1, 2018 by wattsy

[Guest]

Personally I'd not wear or use elephant hide products and for several reasons but they are legitimately traded worldwide for the benefit of all concerned including elephants on reserves … where populations need controlling. If there are too many elephants on some reserves, including infirm animals, is it right to have a 'laissez faire' policy without proper management? It's not easy (likely impossible) to relocate elephants elsewhere where they might fall prey to ivory poachers. The whole elephant hide debate should be considered in proper perspective.

 

I wonder if all those shouting loudest about use of elephant hides wear leather shoes … maybe they don't but I suspect they do. And all those owning luxury cars with leather upholstery. Do you realise where the leather was sourced? It does not grow on trees. And all those paying to visit African wildlife reserves for photo safari purposes … Where do you think some of funds are earned to maintain the reserves and monitor animal populations … partly for your photographic benefit? Legitimate elephant culling is a fact of life … it goes on and is necessary … necessary because mankind has invaded Africa and because tourists including photo safari tourists want to visit wildlife reserves.

 

Forgot to include alligator and crocodile skin watch straps … expect there are more than a few forum members wearing same … and all sourced from sustainable or farmed resources.

 

I'm not trying to justify TO's clothing … just endeavouring to put things into proper perspective … but, BTW … TO has ceased marketing elephant hide products.

 

I expect this post will be considered for deletion in fact I'll be surprised if it's allowed … but facts are facts … and deleting it will not stop a few TLF members travelling to Africa for their next photo safari … or buying their next luxury leather upholstered car … or luxury leather hand made shoes …maybe camel skin?

 

dunk

 

EDIT : At The Leica Society AGM Weekend event yesterday everyone thoroughly enjoyed Thorsten's 'Decisive Moment' projected images presentation and we learnt a lot. And TO was kind enough to donate one of his signed prints to our raffle which boosted Society funds. A good weekend was enjoyed by all.

Dunk

I still have a pair of elephant ear boots made in Thailand 20 years ago. Cumphy as slippers

Neil

[dkCambridgeshire]

Dunk forced himself into a "defensive position". It was his choice to go off on some rant about luxury leather seats and expensive safaris and accuse people he doesn't know of hypocrisy.

 

 

Others started the rants and criticisms and accusations which have since been selectively moderated / amended, and deleted.

 

dunk 

[Beresford]

I follow the threads on this site for enjoyment and learning. Whilst I respect those with strongly held views on a variety of subjects I feel more than a little uncomfortable when they move from the subject itself and become ad hominem attacks, especially when the person concerned has changed/withdrawn what ever it was that offended. I have never met Mr Overgaard, and I am sure that we would agree and disagree on a variety of subjects, but that would be a pleasure of the encounter. I have read and learned a great deal from his website and value his ideas about how to take photographs.

 

Maybe there ought to be a "Sin Bin" or "Special Measures" section (when I was at school there was a "Naughty Step") where cross patch threads might be placed until civilised discourse returned.

 

Though, as I think about it, who ever would volunteer to police such a forum? 

Edited May 1, 2018 by Beresford

[jaapv]

… or moved to Barnack's Bar … Where those who criticise loudest can consider the fact that there is one rule for them when they enjoy their exotic leather products e.g. in their lavish 'leather upholstered' cars … and also enjoy their photo safari holiday trips partly enabled by e.g. African elephant management … but they advocate different rules for others whom they condemn for enjoying other exotic leather products … even though those they condemn have obtained their leather goods from legitimate and sustainable sources. 

 

Consider also the exotic skins used by Leica Camera AG for covering their special edition cameras e.g. Ostrich and Karung leathers  … which forum members do not criticise … in fact some embrace same and collect them … partly because of their texture and tactility . 

 

" 'Pot' and 'kettle' "  come to mind … also, " …. 'glass houses' …  and 'stones' " 

 

dunk 

I feel quite offended at your Safari trip sneer, Dunk.

 

Yes- travel in Africa is expensive - partly because governments and parks levy  high fees to FINANCE conservation.

Managing wild animal populations costs money, it does not subsidize foreign tourism as you imply. Some countries could not even survive without tourist income, let alone attempt to protect their wildlife. 

 

Your perception of Elephant management does not conform  to reality either. Often they are moved, a hugely expensive operation. Culling, which you refer to, is highly controversial in  conservation circles, and  the people involved will go to great lengths to avoid it. Kenia even built motorway underpasses to open up  Elephant migration routes.

 

And I earn the money I pay with my own two hands.

 

As others point out, you confuse exotic leather with using  leather from CITES-listed animals and other endangered animals which carries a high risk of procuring criminally provided goods.

Would you eat in a Congolian restaurant which offers you "Beef Stew" when you can have a reasonable expectation that it is "Bush Meat" e.g. Gorilla or Monkey?

Not quite the same as buying an Ostrich steak from Sainsbury's, is it?

[jaapv]

Others started the rants and criticisms and accusations which have since been selectively moderated / amended, and deleted.

 

dunk 

Yes, some posts have been moderated or deleted. As moderation has run its course, I cannot see the point of reacting to the deleted parts. "Others started" is a schoolyard argument which will never be considered by the moderating team.

[earleygallery]

Dunk,

 

I suggest you read through the recent thread about TO promoting his range of Elephant skin bags.

 

It's silly to compare the sale of endangered animals hides to cows which are bred for food and hides, and I suspect you know that but you were just trying to score points. Again, if you read the thread you will find explanations from some of our members as to exactly why 'legal' trade in endangered animals is still wrong.

 

The TO bags were discussed on most camera forums - I read a post from someone along the lines that it was sad to hear of a photographer encouraging the shooting of such animals with guns instead of cameras.

 

TO made some apparent U turn in his opinions, after 'much research' (about a day after the reaction online) and said he will no longer 'promote' the elephant skin bag. He stopped short of actually saying that he would not accept any orders for such and indeed he has his own collection of elephant bags (bearing in mind also that he's doing the bags in partnership with some designer who probably sources the skins anyway and wasn't party to TO's statement).

 

So forgive me if I find your promotion of TO on the forum a little distasteful.

[Ouroboros]

 Thorsten The Elephant Skinner could do very well selling leather elbow patches to the members.

[earleygallery]

I must admit I wish I hadn't posted my initial response now referring to the elephants which provoked Dunk's responses and this thread would probably have been buried by now, irked though I was at TO being promoted here.

 

It may be best to delete it entirely.

[dkCambridgeshire]

I've received support via Emails for posting the original photo on the forum  … it's a documentary photo.

 

If anyone objects to it maybe they should have pursued their objection via the 'report' facility and advised a moderator directly.  

 

dunk 

[pedaes]

TvO was invited to speak at the Leica Society meeting and he did so very well, concentrating solely on his style of photography and his use of Leica cameras and lenses. He has also been invited to speak at the LHSA meeting in Wetzlar in October, together with Jono Slack and others. Be prepared for "record" shots of this event to be published, as Dunk says, for general interest. 

Edited May 1, 2018 by pedaes

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Jeffry Abt]

 

 

 

 

I have had my fair share of this treatment and I no longer feel the desire to start a thread for fear that it will be misinterpreted and just lead to a volley of attacks. ... so best to not even bother.

 

 

 

Well said!

Edited May 1, 2018 by Jeffry Abt

[JHAG]

More disturbing than elephant skin, is the rabid campaigning of his wife, the infamous Joy Villa, notably on her Twittter account, in favor of white supremacist Dinesh Souza, multiple felon recently pardoned by someone.

I much prefer having anything Leica related to the "Leica train" mounted by Leitz and his daughter in 1942 to save Jews during the war by channeling them to New York state Leica facilities.

Edited July 6, 2018 by JHAG