Meyer Optik re-issued APO Makro Plasmat or Nikkor LTM in 105mm

[wlaidlaw]

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I see that Meyer Optik have announced on Kickstarter here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/meyeroptik/glorious-dr-rudolphs-apo-plasmat-lens-105mm-f27-re# a re-issued and updated version of Dr. Paul Rudolf's Makro-Plasmat 105mm/f2.7. Of course they are making the usual hyperbole type of statements about glow, 3D, bokeh and the other sales  rubbish that folks spout about lenses. They are going to issue it in various mounts, including M mount but sadly lacking RF coupling, which makes it a non-starter for me. 

 

My personal choice in this focal length would be the Nikkor 105mm/f2.5 in LTM. This is RF coupled and is one of the finest lenses that Nippon Kogaku made. I can buy an excellent copy of one of these lenses for about a quarter of what the new Meyer Optik would cost, even at the discounted Kickstarter price. I know where my money is going. 

 

What do others think? 

 

 

 

 

 

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[pixelman]

I see that Meyer Optik have announced on Kickstarter here: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/meyeroptik/glorious-dr-rudolphs-apo-plasmat-lens-105mm-f27-re# a re-issued and updated version of Dr. Paul Rudolf's Makro-Plasmat 105mm/f2.7. Of course they are making the usual hyperbole type of statements about glow, 3D, bokeh and the other sales rubbish that folks spout about lenses. They are going to issue it in various mounts, including M mount but sadly lacking RF coupling, which makes it a non-starter for me.

 

My personal choice in this focal length would be the Nikkor 105mm/f2.5 in LTM. This is RF coupled and is one of the finest lenses that Nippon Kogaku made. I can buy an excellent copy of one of these lenses for about a quarter of what the new Meyer Optik would cost, even at the discounted Kickstarter price. I know where my money is going.

 

What do others think?

the 105mm f2.5 LTM nikkor is a great lens. I have one, but almost never use it and instead greatly prefer the Nikkor 85mm f2 LTM...the 85, especially the newer, lighter black version is light, sharp and a bit easier to use with a Leica RF (you get a bit more in the frame than the 90 frame lines- using the 105 with the 90 frame can be an issue)

 

The bad news is that the black versions are pricy and scarce. There are 2 of them avail on eBay now, which is not common.

 

The older chrome finish version images just as well and is more common and less money, but it weighs a lot more and doesn’t have the same aesthetics.

 

Other lens to think about is the Canon 85mm 1.8 LTM. Incredible performer, but a bit larger than the 85 nikkor. I have one of these and it is hard to beat from an image quality point of view.

 

 

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[wlaidlaw]

I am already the proud owner of a beautiful condition Summarex 85mm/f1.5 (currently off for a service, as although it looks clean, after close to 70 years, it must have some grunge on the air surfaces), so I don't need another 85mm. The black 105mm Nikkors are ridiculously cheap and It is a lens length I like for use on my various LTM Leicas. It will balance well on my IIIa with a MOOLY motor on it. I have a TEWE zoom 35-200mm finder to use with it. 

 

Wilson

[luigi bertolotti]

This Meyer has an odd and (in my view) someway appealing look : I confess that was also intrigued by the fact that one of the pictures taken  (supposedly) with it has been taken in a place I do know very well (Campiglio, my typical ski location, 1st pic in the "Travelling Lens" section... ). 

 

But :

 

1 - I didn't succeed in understanding HOW MUCH, you will pay at the end, the lens : seems to me that is totally unclear (whilst the "pledging - cofounding of the project" - mechanism is rather clear)

2 - ESTIMATED (  ) delivery Feb 2019....

3 - M version ... but no RF coupling...

 

So... I'll wait 1 year or so and will see ... they collected 145K€, and if we trust them about this figure and the 40K goal , project could start, I think...

But I repeat that I find attractive its look and size... and never had a 105mm apart the Alpine Elmar  .

Edited April 21, 2018 by luigi bertolotti

[Ecar]

I agree: as someone who enjoys the rangefinder experience I see no point in the MOG lens, especially at this price point.

 

I have two Nikkors 105/2.5, one in LTM and the other in Nikon RF mount. The latter works very well with an Amedeo adapter - although it adds to the (already significant) weight. Amazing lens for portraits if one likes the Sonnar look. Both my copies required fine focus adjustment in order to be reliably used wide open - this is possibly less critical in the current days of LV/EVF.

 

I also own the Nikkor's direct competitor, the Canon 100/2. Equally brilliant, but a different, more modern rendering. And somewhat easier to use, with less focus shift.

 

If you are interested in this particular focal length, other little-known and somewhat rarer lenses worth considering are the Super-Yashinon 100/2.8 and the Komura 105/2, both available in LTM and both very interesting IMO.

 

Maybe I'll post a quick comparison of these lenses when time allows.

[wlaidlaw]

I have bought a Nikkor 105/2.5 for the exorbitant sum of £200 from a dealer in Japan. I have never yet had a classic LTM lens bought from Japan, where the RF was not spot on and I hope this will continue my record. I suspect even though it is stated as clean and fungus free, it will be better for a clean. Lubricants evaporate and re-condense on air surfaces over the years and also most Japanese were and often still are smokers, so it may well have tar deposits on lenses. My 80-200/f4 Vario Elmar R smelt like an old ashtray when I acquired it and had rather disappointing performance. I sent it to Will van Manen in Holland for cleaning and as it also had the common fault with these lenses, of a very loose focus ring, for which he has a permanent cure. It came back smelling fresh, focusing properly and noticeably improved performance. 

 

Wilson

[Ecar]

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Great deal - especially if it comes with original caps and bayonet hood - although 52mm screw-in hoods are widely available, very cheap and work just as well.

And if focus is not spot on and you are sending your newly-acquired Nikkor to Will, it should come back OK. He worked on mine and did his usual great job, although there's no cure for the (very) slight Sonnar focus shift, which can be noticeable on digital.

[Mistral75]

First review (by Marc Alhadeff) of a prototype copy of the Meyer Optik Görlitz Apo-Makro-Plasmat 105mm f/2.7:

https://sonyalpha.blog/2018/04/23/apo-makro-plasmat-105-f2-7-by-meyer-optik/

[otho]

Meyer Optik Gorlitz announce insolvency?

 

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/net-se-meyer-optik-files-for-insolvency-in-germany/

[wlaidlaw]

I have twice been bitten on crowd funding, though admittedly I got my second lot back just before they went down the drain, so I would have been very reluctant to get involved in any crowd funding again, no matter how attractive the lens seemed. I would doubt whether Stefan Immes' sad accident was the sole cause of the insolvency but maybe just the straw that broke the camel's back.

 

The big lens makers like Leica, Zeiss, Canon, Sony and Nikon put a lot of expensive computational power into the research for their lenses. The cost of the research and development per lens, would I imagine, exceed the total funds raised  for the 105mm lens by Optik Gorlitz and that is before you start to subtract the operating costs for a company. The social costs for even a small company in Germany are very considerable with compulsory staff pensions etc. About 20 years ago I looked at setting and funding up a specialist reinsurance underwriting operation in Germany but it was just too expensive to make economic sense. 

 

Wilson

[Universalb50]

I also have a Nikkor-P 105/2.5, early version with bayonet shade (which maybe is too valuable to actually use (?), but any Nikon 105/135mm 52mm hood will fit)...it's a wonderful lens, albeit VERY heavy. If you like the Nikkor 105, and perhaps can't afford the new Summaron 28/5.6, you may like the Nikkor-W 2.8cm/3.5 which I'd suspect is the Nippon Kogaku answer the Summaron? I wish this company success with their new copy, of a copy of a Zeiss Sonnar!

[Ko.Fe.]

Tele lens without RF is not rangefinder lens. M mount is just to make it intercompatible among mirrorless cameras.

But using lens as manual only focus lens is kind of sucks if camera supports AF. IMO. But they have this AF gizmo for Sony and M mount lens. So this is good toy for those who thinks what funky rendering lens is going to make thier pictures better.

[schattenundlicht]

(1) What is the use of fitting a lens with an M Bayonet but not with RF coupling? Quick cash - I can think of no other. I do not need RF coupling with a 10 mm, but definitely with a 105 mm...

 

(2) The number of kickstarter campaigns for dubious retro lenses as opposed to the number of models actually shipping could make one speculate about a kind of Ponzi scheme at work here (disclaimer: this is purely fictional, I would not want to be involved in any legal hassle). This, however, may be an interesting read (German language, but Google Translate has become quite useful): https://cameracreativ.de/aktuelles/retro-ohne-ende-schacht-travegon-auf-kickstarter/. According to this report, the current mother company of the Meyer Optik Görlitz label is in insolvency as of July 2018... https://cameracreativ.de/aktuelles/netse-im-insolvenzverfahren/. I would not have put any money there before, but I would be even more reluctant now, to say the least.

Edited August 12, 2018 by schattenundlicht

[DMJ]

I see that their parent company has filed for bankruptcy, having 2 weeks earlier left the German stock exchange. Lots of investors chasing many back.

[wlaidlaw]

I see that their parent company has filed for bankruptcy, having 2 weeks earlier left the German stock exchange. Lots of investors chasing many back.

 

Usually the only people who will get any serious money are the receivers (accountants) and the lawyers, from my past experience. If it is like the UK, any preferential lenders (usually banks) and the government will "hoover" up any remaining cash, leaving little to nothing for creditors. Shareholders and Kickstarter fund providers are right at the back of the queue and very unlikely to get anything. 

 

Wilson

[romualdo]

Love the Nikkor LTM 105 too - sure it has a long focus throw & is heavy but IMHO it seems to be ergonomically well balanced on LTM's & the images are so sharp plus it has HISTORY (ranging back to the Korean War though it was first released in 1954)

 

How are you expected to use the Makro-Plasmat on an M film camera? No rangefinder coupling?!?

 

OK, I have wide & ultra wide lenses with no rangefinder coupling & use "Hyperfocal" focusing to good effect but try doing that with a longer lens - don't think that's a goer. I suppose if you know the exact focal length to the subject, that may work.

 

So, you'll only be able to effectively use it on Leicas with an electronic viewfinder.

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Edited August 14, 2018 by romualdo

[wlaidlaw]

Well as nobody is ever going to see the lenses they have ordered and paid for from this organisation, how good or practical they are is a moot point. Were they ever going to be able to make the pre-paid -for lenses? Given how quickly they have run out of cash it seems most unlikely. I think the German authorities should be having a look at this company to see whether it was deliberate or just incompetence, allied to financial naivety. This sort of shenanigans makes genuine projects trying to raise money through crowd funding, that much more difficult. Kickstarter seems to be getting a rather grubby reputation. 

 

So it looks like the only game in town for an LTM/M rangefinder 105mm lens at reasonable cost, remains the Nikkor P and it is not a bad answer at all. They seem to have lasted better than some of the Canon lenses, where there appears to be a higher risk of glass fogging or deterioration. The production of the Canon 100/f2 did go on for longer than the Nikkor, right up to 1973, so a more recent lens might be a good alternative to the Nikkor. The Canon is only marginally heavier and 2/3rds of a stop faster. They are generally about double the price of the Nikkor. 

 

Wilson

 

 

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[Ecar]

Well as nobody is ever going to see the lenses they have ordered and paid for from this organisation, how good or practical they are is a moot point. Were they ever going to be able to make the pre-paid -for lenses? Given how quickly they have run out of cash it seems most unlikely. I think the German authorities should be having a look at this company to see whether it was deliberate or just incompetence, allied to financial naivety. This sort of shenanigans makes genuine projects trying to raise money through crowd funding, that much more difficult. Kickstarter seems to be getting a rather grubby reputation. 

 

AFAIC, I'd never have bought a non-rf coupled lens in the first place.

Ironically however, those who received the lenses made by MOG may just have found that they now own a valuable collectible...

 

So it looks like the only game in town for an LTM/M rangefinder 105mm lens at reasonable cost, remains the Nikkor P and it is not a bad answer at all. They seem to have lasted better than some of the Canon lenses, where there appears to be a higher risk of glass fogging or deterioration. The production of the Canon 100/f2 did go on for longer than the Nikkor, right up to 1973, so a more recent lens might be a good alternative to the Nikkor. The Canon is only marginally heavier and 2/3rds of a stop faster. They are generally about double the price of the Nikkor. 

 

Wilson

 

The Komura 100/2 and the Yashica 100/2.8 were also made in LTM. IMO both are on par with Nikkor or Canon, but are fairly hard to find these days.

EDIT: I just realised that I had already mentioned these lenses previously in this thread (note to self: find time to take pictures and post comparison  )

 

Only a subset of Canon lenses appear to suffer from recurring haze. In my experience, these are some of the black and chrome lenses from the late 50's / early 60's. The 50/1.2 and 50/1.8 (but not all of them) seem to be particularly affected.

The Nikkor 105/2.5 and the Canon 100/2 are both very good, even by modern standards - but handling and rendering are quite different: the Canon is easier/faster to use, but the Nikkor has that unique Sonnar character.

Edited August 14, 2018 by Ecar

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[jaapv]

My Canon 50/1.8 is mint I only had it wiped clean internally by Will van Manen.

[Ecar]

My Canon 50/1.8 is mint I only had it wiped clean internally by Will van Manen.

 

Same here. But my first black and silver copy was not, and haze kept coming back until I replaced it. OTOH, my older all-chrome 50/1.8 has always been fine.

The 50/1.2 is the most unpredictable: one of my two copies has never showed fogging after a thorough CLA, while the other seemed to enjoy Will and Cathy's company so much that it wanted to go back for a trip to Zoetermeer every year. Instead of selling the lens to an innocent buyer, I figured that cleaning the offending element (2nd from rear) is fairly straightforward and I now do it myself as and when required.

I have never been able to find a definitive explanation to such behaviour, although I believe it has to do more with the coatings applied than with the lubricants used.

None of my other Canon lenses (I have quite a few) has ever suffered from this issue.