FlashGordonPhotography Posted April 22, 2018 Share #221 Posted April 22, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) Gordon, I am saying this genuinely and solely with the aim to help make this conversation (and other conversation in the forum) more pleasant and profitable for everyone, so please take my comment in this spirit. You are a very knowledgeable person, no doubt; however, I am sorry but the gentleman has a point. Perhaps it is your way of wording your comments - starting with curt statements such as "And you are wrong.", or "Sorry but no." and such, that give that impression to people. On one end, just because you affirm with such strength that someone is wrong doesn't make it so. On the other hand, no matter how right you indeed are (or not), no matter the intention behind your posting, the attitude you often show when replying makes you look arrogant and patronising, and that automatically moves what you say, no matter how interesting it might be, to the "oh... not again" bin, and it makes me simply skipping your comments - and therefore not profiting from your knowledge, which is a pity because sharing knowledge is the point of being in a forum such as this in the first place. Again, please take my comment in the positive spirit with which I offered it. Best regards, Vieri Fair point. And I shall take it into account. It is in my nature to be direct. But I don't attack the poster, only the post. This post, however, wasn't directed at me. And he did make implications about the person behind the question rather than stick to the question itself. Gordon 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 22, 2018 Posted April 22, 2018 Hi FlashGordonPhotography, Take a look here So, who's buying the 16-35mm?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Jeff S Posted April 22, 2018 Share #222 Posted April 22, 2018 (edited) Gordon, I am saying this genuinely and solely with the aim to help make this conversation (and other conversation in the forum) more pleasant and profitable for everyone, so please take my comment in this spirit. You are a very knowledgeable person, no doubt; however, I am sorry but the gentleman has a point. Perhaps it is your way of wording your comments - starting with curt statements such as "And you are wrong.", or "Sorry but no." and such, that give that impression to people. On one end, just because you affirm with such strength that someone is wrong doesn't make it so. On the other hand, no matter how right you indeed are (or not), no matter the intention behind your posting, the attitude you often show when replying makes you look arrogant and patronising, and that automatically moves what you say, no matter how interesting it might be, to the "oh... not again" bin, and it makes me simply skipping your comments - and therefore not profiting from your knowledge, which is a pity because sharing knowledge is the point of being in a forum such as this in the first place. Again, please take my comment in the positive spirit with which I offered it. Best regards, Vieri A bit of pot calling the kettle black IMO, although your condescension tends to be more subtle, often with a smilie face. Here’s an example from a very recent GetDPI post, similar to ones you’ve posted on this forum....https://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/63839-new-article-how-choose-best-camera-you.html#post756947 I encourage you to read-read your last paragraph, which really is just an unnecessary lecture to the reader to pay more attention. And the irony is, you failed to do just that with his post, failing to address his question regarding the S system. And you might have thanked him for his compliment on your pics. Ever notice that many of your threads end up with aggressive debates between you and various (different) members? Jeff Edited April 22, 2018 by Jeff S 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieri Posted April 22, 2018 Share #223 Posted April 22, 2018 (edited) A bit of pot calling the kettle black IMO, although your condescension tends to be more subtle, often with a smilie face. Here’s an example from a very recent GetDPI post, similar to ones you’ve posted on this forum.... https://www.getdpi.com/forum/leica/63839-new-article-how-choose-best-camera-you.html#post756947 I encourage you to read-read your last paragraph, which really is just an unnecessary lecture to the reader to pay more attention. And the irony is, you failed to do just that with his post, failing to address his question regarding the S system. Ever notice that many of your threads end up with aggressive debates between you and various (different) members? Jeff Jeff, man. I am starting to think that you are stalking me To the point, you are of course entitled to your opinion. However, in you haste to find me at fault, in the post above you conveniently fail to mention Vivek's post at the beginning of the same thread where he attacked my integrity, (#3 in the thread) and also conveniently fail to mention that the answer you linked here to was to a second post in the same thread where Vivek again went against me with a loaded question, question that sort of boomeranged back at him because (kinda like you here) he probably hadn't read the article he pointed to... And then, after having attacked me for the whole thread, Vivek wants insider information about the Leica S from me, info which I don't have and which if I had I couldn't tell him anyway - so I just say nothing, and you only notice my saying nothing. Talking about not exactly being in good faith here, Jeff... Best regards, Vieri Edited April 22, 2018 by Vieri Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted April 23, 2018 Share #224 Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) The only reason a lens with IS degrades IQ is due to improper use. If that is even possible with the Leica implementation of OIS. My understanding was that even if you turn on OIS with the 24-90mm it is still Leica deciding whether it will be used or not, ie. Leica always has the last word... I once read an article along these lines but I unfortunately couldn't find it anymore. Perhaps somebody can confirm whether this is indeed the case or not. Edited April 23, 2018 by JorisV Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted April 23, 2018 Share #225 Posted April 23, 2018 Gordon, I am saying this genuinely and solely with the aim to help make this conversation (and other conversation in the forum) more pleasant and profitable for everyone, so please take my comment in this spirit. You are a very knowledgeable person, no doubt; however, I am sorry but the gentleman has a point. Perhaps it is your way of wording your comments - starting with curt statements such as "And you are wrong.", or "Sorry but no." and such, that give that impression to people. On one end, just because you affirm with such strength that someone is wrong doesn't make it so. On the other hand, no matter how right you indeed are (or not), no matter the intention behind your posting, the attitude you often show when replying makes you look arrogant and patronising, and that automatically moves what you say, no matter how interesting it might be, to the "oh... not again" bin, and it makes me simply skipping your comments - and therefore not profiting from your knowledge, which is a pity because sharing knowledge is the point of being in a forum such as this in the first place. Again, please take my comment in the positive spirit with which I offered it. Best regards, Vieri Vieri, being too trigger happy is rarely a good thing. The arrogance comment was directed at myself and at panoserve, not at Gordon... Thanks, Joris. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted April 23, 2018 Share #226 Posted April 23, 2018 The case for including it in the new wide, balanced against size and cost, seems weak Perhaps. The lens is designed for landscape photographers and will mostly be used by landscape photographers as well. I am not a landscape photographer but 21-28-35 is right up my alley and because of that I also phrased it like this: "Adding OIS to the 16-35 would have made it useful for non-landscape photographers as well and would have made it a much more versatile lens. " Still sticking to that... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgrayson3 Posted April 23, 2018 Share #227 Posted April 23, 2018 Advertisement (gone after registration) What subjects benefit from IS at 21mm? I’ve never had it on WA, so I may just lack imagination. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted April 23, 2018 Share #228 Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) Perhaps. The lens is designed for landscape photographers and will mostly be used by landscape photographers as well. I am not a landscape photographer but 21-28-35 is right up my alley and because of that I also phrased it like this: "Adding OIS to the 16-35 would have made it useful for non-landscape photographers as well and would have made it a much more versatile lens. " Still sticking to that... So, let’s unpick that. Most people who hold themselves out as landscape photographers (to the exclusion of all else) will tend to use tripods. Leica advises them to turn the image stabilisation off. Interesting that Leica does not mention turning it off for moving subjects. That then leaves motion blur from handheld photography. The received wisdom is do not go slower than the inverse of the f stop - with this lens, 1/16 to 1/35m of a second, which is acceptably slow for most situations, without adjusting ISO. Now, I’m not questioning your need - that is entirely down to you. But, I am suggesting that Leica’s decision to reduce the size, weight and expense of this lens by excluding image stabilisation is understandable. If I was a buyer for this lens, I wouldn’t miss it as for most photography, motion blur at these speeds for the handheld photography I do is not such an issue. Cheers John Edited April 23, 2018 by IkarusJohn 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VVJ Posted April 23, 2018 Share #229 Posted April 23, 2018 Now, I’m not questioning your need - that is entirely down to you. But, I am suggesting that Leica’s decision to reduce the size, weight and expense of this lens by excluding image stabilisation is understandable. Not disagreeing with this. You are absolutely right. Two comments though: 1) Releasing a 12-24mm (without overlap with the 24-90mm) would IMO have been a better strategy to reduce size, weight and expense. 2) Leica does not operate in a vacuum. All mirrorless competitors (except for the 2 medium format ones) do offer stabilization (also for wide angles) either in-body, in-lens or both. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted April 23, 2018 Share #230 Posted April 23, 2018 A 12-24, preferrably f/3.5, would have been hard to resist ... 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieri Posted April 23, 2018 Share #231 Posted April 23, 2018 Vieri, being too trigger happy is rarely a good thing. The arrogance comment was directed at myself and at panoserve, not at Gordon... Thanks, Joris. Joris, of course the gentleman's comment was directed at you, I just used it to make a point with Gordon. Re-reading it now I think I should have worded it "Perhaps the gentleman has a point about arrogance." to make what I meant more clear - my bad. Gordon however seems to have taken my comment to him in the spirit I meant it despite my imprecise wording, which is what counts. Best regards, Vieri Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieri Posted April 23, 2018 Share #232 Posted April 23, 2018 Not disagreeing with this. You are absolutely right. Two comments though: 1) Releasing a 12-24mm (without overlap with the 24-90mm) would IMO have been a better strategy to reduce size, weight and expense. 2) Leica does not operate in a vacuum. All mirrorless competitors (except for the 2 medium format ones) do offer stabilization (also for wide angles) either in-body, in-lens or both. Joris, 1) Absence of IS being equal, a 12-24mm would have been bigger than a 16-35mm; since the 16-35mm has no IS, there wouldn't have been any advantage in size and weight going for a 12-24mm. 2) Good point. On one end, Leica historically never went wider than 16mm, I couldn't find the reference now but if I am not wrong they said at some point that they couldn't make a wider lens with the quality the aim for (probably without making it too big and too expensive, too). On the other had, and for what is worth, my opinion of the focal length choice actually changed from when they announced it to now - this applies mostly to my kind of photography though, and it might not make sense to you. I used to agree with the 12-24mm crowd and the non-overlapping idea sounded better to me as well. Now, for my work, there are locations where I need to go wide - others where I need to go long. Rarely both at the same time. For the former, I can just bring a (small and light) 10/12mm MF lens on one body, and the 16-35mm on the other: this offers me better flexibility and a lighter bag than a 12-24mm + 24-90mm combination, while still allowing me to reach to 35mm which, in this scenario, is better than 24mm. One other point important for people using filters, like me, is that a 12-24mm would very likely (seen other manufacturer's offer) have had a bulbous front element and therefore needed 150mm square filters with a special adapter. For my work, sticking with 100mm square filters is a huge bonus - so much so that I wouldn't consider a lens that forced me to use 150mm square filters. Once more, I appreciate it that my requirements are very specific; but, personally, I am happy that Leica decided to go for 16-35mm rather than 12-24mm. I wouldn't mind a fixed focal length lens wider than 16mm, at some point. While no 12-24mm zoom from any manufacturer can take 100mm filters, Laowa managed to produce a 12mm that can accept 100mm square filters, albeit with a special filter holder, and the three Voigtlander ultra-wides in M mount (10mm, 12mm and 15mm) all can take 100mm filters, so that should be feasible. Just my .02 landscape-oriented-cents, of course. Best regards, Vieri 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieri Posted April 23, 2018 Share #233 Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) Yesterday was my birthday, and thanks to the great guys at NewOldCamera in Milan (http://www.newoldcamera.com/novita.aspx) look what the TNT guy brought me today: the new Leica Super-Vario-Elmar-SL 16-35mm ASPH is finally here! Now I just have to wait for the new Firmware, and then I'll start working on my review... looking forward to trying it out! Best regards, Vieri Edited April 23, 2018 by Vieri 7 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
helged Posted April 23, 2018 Share #234 Posted April 23, 2018 (edited) Yesterday was my birthday, and thanks to the great guys at NewOldCamera in Milan (http://www.newoldcamera.com/novita.aspx) look what the TNT guy brought me today: the new Leica Super-Vario-Elmar-SL 16-35mm ASPH is finally here! Now I just have to wait for the new Firmware, and then I'll start working on my review... looking forward to trying it out! Congratulations! The only missing part here - as far as I can tell - is the green colour in the cloth. That being said, most of us hope that the italian flag syndrome is not present in the 16-35mm. You will be one of the first to know... Edited April 23, 2018 by helged Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoySmith Posted April 23, 2018 Share #235 Posted April 23, 2018 Yesterday was my birthday, and thanks to the great guys at NewOldCamera in Milan (http://www.newoldcamera.com/novita.aspx) look what the TNT guy brought me today: the new Leica Super-Vario-Elmar-SL 16-35mm ASPH is finally here! Now I just have to wait for the new Firmware, and then I'll start working on my review... looking forward to trying it out! Best regards, Vieri That's a great birthday present ! I'm looking forward to your review - I'm still on the fence about the 16-35 SL. I have the 18mm SEM , the 15mm Voightlander Super Wide Heliar III, and the 24-90 SL all of which I am happy with. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillbeers15 Posted April 23, 2018 Share #236 Posted April 23, 2018 Yesterday was my birthday, and thanks to the great guys at NewOldCamera in Milan (http://www.newoldcamera.com/novita.aspx) look what the TNT guy brought me today: the new Leica Super-Vario-Elmar-SL 16-35mm ASPH is finally here! Now I just have to wait for the new Firmware, and then I'll start working on my review... looking forward to trying it out! Congratulations! Looks like you’re the earliest to receive a copy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sillbeers15 Posted April 23, 2018 Share #237 Posted April 23, 2018 Yesterday was my birthday, and thanks to the great guys at NewOldCamera in Milan (http://www.newoldcamera.com/novita.aspx) look what the TNT guy brought me today: the new Leica Super-Vario-Elmar-SL 16-35mm ASPH is finally here! Now I just have to wait for the new Firmware, and then I'll start working on my review... looking forward to trying it out! Congratulations! Looks like you’re the earliest to receive a copy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vieri Posted April 23, 2018 Share #238 Posted April 23, 2018 Congratulations! The only missing part here - as far as I can tell - is the green colour in the cloth. That being said, most of us hope that the italian flag syndrome is not present in the 16-35mm. You will be one of the first to know... You are right, the green is missing from my tablecloth - and I am pretty sure all the Italian flag will be missing from the 16-35mm too! That's a great birthday present ! I'm looking forward to your review - I'm still on the fence about the 16-35 SL. I have the 18mm SEM , the 15mm Voightlander Super Wide Heliar III, and the 24-90 SL all of which I am happy with. Roy Thank you Roy! Yes, I treated myself to this little guy this year Well, I'll try and be as quick as possible while still doing an in-depth review. About your current kit, I think that if you are happy with your lenses, unless you miss the 18-24mm coverage and unless your work requires to minimise lens changes, then you are fine... do you use filters, by any chance? Yesterday was my birthday, and thanks to the great guys at NewOldCamera in Milan (http://www.newoldcamera.com/novita.aspx) look what the TNT guy brought me today: the new Leica Super-Vario-Elmar-SL 16-35mm ASPH is finally here! Now I just have to wait for the new Firmware, and then I'll start working on my review... looking forward to trying it out! Congratulations! Looks like you’re the earliest to receive a copy. Thank you! I never am an early adopter of anything, but this time I decided to make an exception - 16-35mm is probably my most used focal range by far, so this was a lens I was extremely interested in Best regards, Vieri Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill W Posted April 23, 2018 Share #239 Posted April 23, 2018 Yesterday was my birthday, and thanks to the great guys at NewOldCamera in Milan (http://www.newoldcamera.com/novita.aspx) look what the TNT guy brought me today: the new Leica Super-Vario-Elmar-SL 16-35mm ASPH is finally here! Now I just have to wait for the new Firmware, and then I'll start working on my review... looking forward to trying it out! Best regards, Vieri Pretty cool Vieri, Hopefully this means there are more coming soon and to the USA. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alistairm Posted April 23, 2018 Share #240 Posted April 23, 2018 I wish Leica had more OIS lenses. I don’t really mind wides not having it, but it’s no doubt useful, especially as the Leica zooms are on the slow side. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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