Why is Leica better?

[ropo54]

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Jared:

Your reply to GeeTee is very much on point. 

 

Oftentimes when people feel compelled to stand on the soapbox and make broad based generalizations (criticisms), it provides more insight into their personal hangups, rather than being constructive commentary.

 

Thanks for expressing your perspective (and for your other contributions to this site).

 

Rob

Edited February 14, 2018 by ropo54

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[pico]

Read " Zen.." when I was 24. Influenced my life a great deal.

 

BTW, Danny Lyon was at U of Chicago at about the same interesting time.

[Chaemono]

Interesting.

 

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[jonoslack]

I could give you examples but that wouldn't be fair. My criticism, which is not unique to me, is based on the work I see posted around various places, here included. I suppose you could generalise it as 'boring snaps of this and that usually with gratuitous use of 'bokeh' for the sake of it'. The results are cloying, sacharine and show a lack of imagination and a lack of any motivation to develop an imagination or any effort to explore something important about the world.

 

Hi Greg

such brutal judgement "cloying, saccharine and showing a lack of imagination" I guess that only putting one c in saccharine makes it a bit less brutal . . 

 

But so grumpy? I wonder about your motives? are you trying to humble us all? 

 

BUT

 

I really enjoyed your Tears in Rain website, and I suggest that anyone here has a look at it  - great stuff - focused, and lots of great images. 

Doesn't mean i subscribe to your grumpiness, but saultations for your enterprise!

Edited February 14, 2018 by jonoslack

[mgrayson3]

Comment withdrawn. Everything I have to say has been said better above.

Edited February 15, 2018 by mgrayson3

[sillbeers15]

Can any of these discussions motivate us to take better pictures? Or help us understand our camera gears better? Should energy be better spend else where on other topics relating more to photography or Leica gears that can make us happier?

[sunil]

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I could give you examples but that wouldn't be fair. My criticism, which is not unique to me, is based on the work I see posted around various places, here included. I suppose you could generalise it as 'boring snaps of this and that usually with gratuitous use of 'bokeh' for the sake of it'. The results are cloying, sacharine and show a lack of imagination and a lack of any motivation to develop an imagination or any effort to explore something important about the world.

 

My own work is for you and others to judge and I am very happy for you to criticise it, pull it apart, say what you think is weak about it. Indeed I would sincerely welcome that; feedback and criticism is important. My aspiration is to be a better photographer and a better person and I'm trying to use photography to do that by engaging with people randomly in the hope that I can understand alternative perspectives and experiences. I'm not sure this results in 'good work' but it certainly feels like a 'good process', at least in terms of motivation, asipiration and the willingness to try and be better.

 

 

It's hard to say but it feels like that is the case. As we commented above, the same problem possibly applies to other brands it's just that other brands don't cost $10,000 for a camera and lens.

 

 

I think if you're going to spend the equivalent of three months average salary on a camera and lens then yes, you have a moral obligation to do that equipment justice. That sounds odd I know but photography is at least aspirationally, an art form, and as an art form, it has something important to contribute to the world. If the images you take don't at least suggest you've tried to contribute something positive to the world, then the world won't stop turning and perhaps no one will die, but that doesn't mean people aren't going to look at you and draw a negative conclusion. It speaks to your character; the world is full of rich, vacuous, shallow people. That isn't a crime but it is morally questionable to live your life in such a way. But this is a big leap from my simply, and at least partially jokingly suggesting that Leica shooters tended to be conspicuous in their lack of talent or application.

 

 

I would never 'forbid' anyone from doing anything of the sort, we live in a (mostly) free society after all. Similarly, I'm not angry at anyone who might buy a Steinway to play Chopsticks or a Strad' to play Three Blind Mice, just massively disappointed that something cabale of such beauty and inspiration is used for such a facile purpose. It disappointing. It's indicative of someone who hasn't grown up and taken responsibility for their life.

 

 

As far as I can tell the point of your story here is to illustrate the concept of unrecognised genius for which Van Gogh was as famous after his death as he is for being recognised a genius. It is indeed a sad story when someone who has real talent is overlooked because fashion prevents people from seeing the real beauty and truth in their work. I think if anything this parable illustrates my point; when society becomes materially obsessed it becomes shallow and vacuous and fails to recognise what is truly beautiful.

 

Wow. I'm going to sell all my Leica gear and stick to an iPhone 4 from now on. I'm so depressed. Think I'll buy me an SL to feel better.

[Chaemono]

This thread seems to be turning into a therapy session. So, we'll be looking at tons of soft corners in one of those "g-masterly" crafted lenses soon to make those in need of help feel better. One user here has literally been begging for it.

 

https://www.smugmug....llery/n-x8Mwmw/

 

https://www.smugmug....llery/n-Jfdr66/

 

https://www.smugmug....llery/n-9J3jzS/

 

https://www.smugmug....llery/n-9FSKSS/

Edited February 15, 2018 by Chaemono

[pgk]

I could give you examples but that wouldn't be fair. My criticism, which is not unique to me, is based on the work I see posted around various places, here included. I suppose you could generalise it as 'boring snaps of this and that usually with gratuitous use of 'bokeh' for the sake of it'. The results are cloying, sacharine and show a lack of imagination and a lack of any motivation to develop an imagination or any effort to explore something important about the world.

 

The thing is that different people have different aspirations. Whilst I do use my cameras to take images that I like, I also use them in many other ways; note taking, copying, capturing a specific moment as a record, boring snapshots (yes I do take them), technical studies and more. And to me a 'good' photo is one which fulfils its remit, whatever that may be. Whether anyone likes or agrees with it or not, an expensive Leica camera is no different from any other in terms of its potential usage - and not everyone is motivated to take 'meaningful' images or to be a Cartier-Bresson (I certainly wouldn't want to be a CB style photographer for sure).

 

I very much doubt if buying an SL or M or CL is based purely on the desire to shoot extraordinary and inspirational images, though no doubt the fact that they are capable of doing so helps. As I have said before, cameras are bought based on perception which itself arises from many factors and aspects of the camera's design, specification and even its position within the world of photography. But what its actually used for varies dramatically from person to person. Running a photographic gallery very quickly illustrates what people find captivating - and its not always what you might think. I have watched some prints by one of the photographers we represent stay in the gallery for a mere two days - inspired, stunning, set-up still life images taken in available light which I happen to know were shot on an APS, 12MPixelish Canon dSLR. They are the sort of image which I would not take, and I would not criticise the choice of camera was used to do so.

[jaapv]

Whilst I agree with Paul that the critique of "boring snapshots" is not relevant and certainly not gear-related, I can see the reasoning behind Greg's argument. There are waves of fashion and mannerism in photography (well, where not?) that can be come quite annoying. remember the excessive use of posterizing in the 1970-ies?

Shallow DOF  and Bokeh photography does seems to be the shibboleth of our times. Leica's bad (?)  luck is that they produce lenses that are particularly well-suited to this style.

[scott kirkpatrick]

BTW, Danny Lyon was at U of Chicago at about the same interesting time.

 And Vivienne Maier, who remained unpublished and unnoticed through all of the '60s, '70s, and '80s, was working in Chicago.  A lively place. 

[Goughie]

This is turning into a long thread but heres my $0.02.

 

Short story... is Leica worth the price? Absolutely not. Far from. But I couldn't care less as that's really not the point. Someone above mentioned it from a car point of view. Does the Rolls Royce driver care that his car is outperformed by cars 1/4 of the price?

 

Now for the slightly longer personal story

 

I'm not a professional but have enjoyed taking photos as long as I can remember. I spend a lot of my free time doing landscapes and not too long ago I started to heavily invest into Canon. I had the Canon 1Dx mkII and 5 or so L lenses.

 

I went on a 4-5 day trip to the Isle of Skye where I took 3000+ photos. I got back sat down, edited them, and started to think about how much of the camera I actually use. I think I regularly used 5% of the cameras settings, and had probably only used 50% of the settings more than once.

 

The more I thought about it the more I realized I'd become detached from my photos. It wasn't me taking the photos. I was just pressing the shutter and the tech guy at Canon had more involvement than me (maybe his/her name should be my watermark)   

 

Having always valued good design and build quality I started to think about Leica. Having never held one I visited the Leica store in Manchester on the way back from the Isle of Skye. Well... from the second I held it I fell in love. Its hard to explain and completely irrational. But just the way it feels, the build, the design are unlike anything. I didn't leave the shop thinking, oh no! what would I do with no autofocus, no 11fps. I left thinking why do I have autofocus and 11fps.

 

I now own an M240 and two M lenses.

 

Do I look back and dream about the 1Dx.... not at all.

 

Interestingly from a technical point of view there is one huge benefit I've noticed using the Leica. The amount of detail and sharpness. This is 100% down to the lens (50mm 1.4 ASPH) but it was genuinely mind blowing. I still now zoom in 200% or so just for amusement. Photos have detail I never got from the 1Dx mkii

 

P.S First post! Long time dweller but never posted anything!

[robgo2]

 

If you say: " so many Leica photographers so bad " . does this implies, that they are worse than other brand users?

 

 

My impression from viewing tens of thousands of user images around the web is that most of them are mediocre and uninteresting, but I think this applies about equally to photos from all camera brands. Leica users are no worse than typical users of other brands with the exception that most professionals are in the Nikon and Canon camps, so one may see better work done with those brands. OTOH, there are wonderful artists using all types of cameras. Leica shooters just happen to be able to afford more expensive gear.

[dancook]

 

[Paulus]

This is turning into a long thread but heres my $0.02.

 

Short story... is Leica worth the price? Absolutely not. Far from. But I couldn't care less as that's really not the point. Someone above mentioned it from a car point of view. Does the Rolls Royce driver care that his car is outperformed by cars 1/4 of the price?

 

Now for the slightly longer personal story

 

I'm not a professional but have enjoyed taking photos as long as I can remember. I spend a lot of my free time doing landscapes and not too long ago I started to heavily invest into Canon. I had the Canon 1Dx mkII and 5 or so L lenses.

 

I went on a 4-5 day trip to the Isle of Skye where I took 3000+ photos. I got back sat down, edited them, and started to think about how much of the camera I actually use. I think I regularly used 5% of the cameras settings, and had probably only used 50% of the settings more than once.

 

The more I thought about it the more I realized I'd become detached from my photos. It wasn't me taking the photos. I was just pressing the shutter and the tech guy at Canon had more involvement than me (maybe his/her name should be my watermark)   

 

Having always valued good design and build quality I started to think about Leica. Having never held one I visited the Leica store in Manchester on the way back from the Isle of Skye. Well... from the second I held it I fell in love. Its hard to explain and completely irrational. But just the way it feels, the build, the design are unlike anything. I didn't leave the shop thinking, oh no! what would I do with no autofocus, no 11fps. I left thinking why do I have autofocus and 11fps.

 

I now own an M240 and two M lenses.

 

Do I look back and dream about the 1Dx.... not at all.

 

Interestingly from a technical point of view there is one huge benefit I've noticed using the Leica. The amount of detail and sharpness. This is 100% down to the lens (50mm 1.4 ASPH) but it was genuinely mind blowing. I still now zoom in 200% or so just for amusement. Photos have detail I never got from the 1Dx mkii

 

P.S First post! Long time dweller but never posted anything!

 

Welcome to the forum!

[Paulus]

My impression from viewing tens of thousands of user images around the web is that most of them are mediocre and uninteresting, but I think this applies about equally to photos from all camera brands. Leica users are no worse than typical users of other brands with the exception that most professionals are in the Nikon and Canon camps, so one may see better work done with those brands. OTOH, there are wonderful artists using all types of cameras. Leica shooters just happen to be able to afford more expensive gear.

I don't think Leica users in general happen to be able to afford more expensive gear. In this sentence one is IMHO suggesting, that Leica users are in general richer than other gear users, or that rich persons more often use a Leica than other brands. I don't believe this is thru. I know a lot of Leica users who can just afford one , because they made sacrifices somewhere else. The average Leica user is wealthy, they can own a car or can take a holiday in a foreign country,  just like a lot of other people, but don't have to be " super" rich. 

 

I think it's a matter of choice, just like a watch dealer said to me, when I said to him, that I could not afford a IWC watch. He said: " You can afford it, but you choose not to, that is something different. " 

[robgo2]

I don't think Leica users in general happen to be able to afford more expensive gear. In this sentence one is IMHO suggesting, that Leica users are in general richer than other gear users, or that rich persons more often use a Leica than other brands. I don't believe this is thru. I know a lot of Leica users who can just afford one , because they made sacrifices somewhere else. The average Leica user is wealthy, they can own a car or can take a holiday in a foreign country,  just like a lot of other people, but don't have to be " super" rich. 

 

I think it's a matter of choice, just like a watch dealer said to me, when I said to him, that I could not afford a IWC watch. He said: " You can afford it, but you choose not to, that is something different. " 

 

I disagree. While the matter of personal choice is certainly relevant, most photographers, especially those who do not earn a living from it, cannot even begin to consider a $5000-$10000 or more investment in camera gear. Hence, most Leica users are people of some means. They may not all be in the 1%, but they must be reasonably secure financially.

[Paulus]

I disagree. While the matter of personal choice is certainly relevant, most photographers, especially those who do not earn a living from it, cannot even begin to consider a $5000-$10000 or more investment in camera gear. Hence, most Leica users are people of some means. They may not all be in the 1%, but they must be reasonably secure financially.

 

Or you save your money for ten years and buy that Leica? You don't have to start with an equipement of € 10.000,- : € 3000,- for a body and € 1000,- for a lens is € 4000,-  I think a lot of Nikon/Canaon?Sony camera users have collected gear for over €4000,- 

 

It often sounds, like Leica users are some kind of rich elites who can " afford " a Leica, but if you can afford a car, you also can afford a Leica IMHO . And of course I don't mean the professional car users who  earn a living from it. 

Edited February 17, 2018 by Paulus

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[geetee1972]

Who here is familiar with the phrase 'all the gear, no idea'?

 

It's a stereotype I know but since it exists it must mean something. What does it mean to people; is it a positive or a negative statement; if it's negative why is it so, what are the unspoken values and principles on which that negative judgement are based and why do they matter?

[jaapv]

OK. This is enough rudenes; I have started deleting posts. Back to the subject please or the thread will be closed.