Leica CL vs Sony A6000 (6300, 6500)

[frame-it]

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well i recently picked up a a6000 [on sale] and FE 50 f1.8 for casual travel shots..i think its very nice

 

And with the Sony you have plenty of choices

 

 

http://briansmith.com/gear/sony-lens-adapters/

 

 

 

 

for the A6000 the sigma 19 and Sony Zeiss 16-35 mm zoom


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[jaapv]

Much as I

 

Yeah, I'm having doubts myself.

I'd have to sell my GX8 to get the CL, but the Nocticron and 14-140 are 2 lenses that are not available in the Leica world.

 

I wonder how often I'd use my M lenses on the CL, because I think I prefer shooting my M lenses with a rangefinder.

Much as I like the images from the GX8, and of course the unique advantages the system offers, I do not think that the IQ can quite compete with FF 24 MP sensors, and I strongly suspect that the CL output will be very close to my M240 (or to an SL/M10 for that matter).

I see the GX8 as a complementary camera, to take over where the CL hits its photographic limitations. I would not sell the Panasonic as the CL cannot replace it completely.

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[tom0511]

I can only talk for myself. I have used both Sony (dx and ff) and Leica and for my taste I prefer Leica because of the following:

-more simple and intuitive user interface

-better build quality

-excellent lenses

-I prefer the color of the images

-CL/TL2/SL all also work good with M lenses

[AlanJW]

I have tried Sony mirrorless but they are not for me.  Sony makes good products but their user interface is IMHO too complicated and sometimes confounding.  Sony is at heart a consumer electronics company and Leica is a camera company.   The Leica user interface is designed to be or quickly become intuitive so that you don't have to stop and think about how some control is working.  Sony optics are very good but I have a big investment in M lenses and a few T lenses too, so a CL is in my future -- even though I prefer full frame.   I do still have a Sony RX100 iii but that is an entirely different animal.

[tonyniev]

You have the classic dilemma of someone with a mixture of system cameras and lenses.

 

There is little to differentiate the better cameras in each sensor category in terms of output quality these days...... with lenses you get what you pay for, generally speaking.

 

The choices then come down to what suits your way of working and your wallet.

 

Despite the cost I decided many years ago to dump all my non Leica gear and stick to one system wherever possible (with the occasional lens with no Leica equivalent) ..... makes life a lot simpler and avoids the sort of situation you are now in ....  

 

You need to decide whether you are going to drift further towards Leica or stick to Sony ....... and soon you will have more cameras than you need and some will have to go ..... decisions, decisions ..... 

 

This is the best answer to my situation...must decide now on the platform to work with in the future. Thanks

[jmahto]

As a long term M (M9 and M240) and Sony Nex-6 user, I can chip in my 2 cents. I do use my Sony extensively, however not as alternate camera but a complimentary camera with MF long lens (135 to 400). It also acts as my "backup" camera to M240 but my definition of backup may differ from others. In a true backup you want exactly (or very close) the same thing as primary, but for me "backup" simply means "come back home with satisfying picture even if main camera fails". Due to low body weight, Nex-6 is always there in my bag with M adapter. At the same time I am always aware that IQ from my M240 is always superior therefore I don't use Nex-6 with same lens unless it is being used as backup. 

 

I have only one native lens which is 16-50. It is tiny lens and in emergency, IQ is good enough. I also use Nex-6 in hostile environment (as in Kayak) with cheap Konica MF lens in 28-135 range and can get excellent pictures (example below):

https://flic.kr/p/21VcJRQ

 

Since Nex-6 is useful to me, I am always looking for opportunity to upgrade the body. I passed A6000 since EVF was poor compared to Nex-6. A6300 was better for EVF but A6500 caught my attention due to IBIS (since my main use is long MF lens). Jim did a test sometime ago with 180APO3.4 on A7II body and found that "it is solid till 1/125 handheld with IBIS". I am hoping A6500 IBIS will be similar.

http://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/a7ii-ibis-with-the-180mm-apo-telyt-r/

 

But now we have CL and except IBIS it seems to be much better suited for my usage (M lens and legacy MF lens collection). If it had IBIS, my decision would have been prompt. For now I can sit tight since I am not really constrained by Nex-6. (disclaimer: I am just an enthusiastic amateur) 

 

Therefore my bottom 2 cents are as follows: 

1st cent: As "alternate" system Sony doesn't make sense if you already have M. It makes sense only as complimentary system.

2nd cent: IBIS is very attractive if that is what you need. If you don't need IBIS then CL is clear winner.

Edited November 28, 2017 by jmahto

[frame-it]

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"If you don't need IBIS then CL is clear winner."

 

?

 

i assume you mean if one has lots of leica lenses and doesn't need IBIS the the CL is a clear winner ?

[jaapv]

I guess he does, and I'm not surprised. The compatability with other Leica systems-lenses will be the key factor.

I rather doubt whether I would be buying any lens with the CL body.  Just an M adapter. (I have M-R ones). Well, maybe that Pancake for fun.

[jmahto]

"If you don't need IBIS then CL is clear winner."

 

?

 

i assume you mean if one has lots of leica lenses and doesn't need IBIS the the CL is a clear winner ?

Yes. If you get native lens (overlapping FL for M) for A6500 then it becomes alternate system and not a complementary system. Edited November 28, 2017 by jmahto

[Ecaton]

I guess he does, and I'm not surprised. The compatability with other Leica systems-lenses will be the key factor.

I rather doubt whether I would be buying any lens with the CL body.  Just an M adapter. (I have M-R ones). Well, maybe that Pancake for fun.

 

I ordered the CL with the pancake and the m-adapter. But then I could not resist and pushed the buy button on a nicely discounted Vario-Elmar 55-135mm. It carries the "APO" label so I expect it to be rather good.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I ordered the CL with the pancake and the m-adapter. But then I could not resist and pushed the buy button on a nicely discounted Vario-Elmar 55-135mm. It carries the "APO" label so I expect it to be rather good.

 

It's more than rather good. It's very good indeed.

 

Wish it had IS though.....

 

Gordon

[jmahto]

It's more than rather good. It's very good indeed.

 

Wish it had IS though.....

 

Gordon

I hope ISO performance is good enough to be able to shoot on longer end even with f/4.5. But  then I will welcome IBIS any day.

 

If zoom and AF are not needed then there are other lighter options. Sometimes I use Minolta Tele-Rokkor-x f/3.5 on M240 which is surprisingly very good even wide open. With adaptor, it will weigh slightly less than 55-135.

Edited November 29, 2017 by jmahto

[bocaburger]

I have a Nex 6, bought it new-closeout for around $250 at the same time I got my first M240 (demo).  I bought it strictly as an emergency backup, as I do not care for EVF's, period.  At the time I chose it over a Nex 7 due to better performance of the crop sensor with rangefinder ultra wide lenses.  I have a CV 12mm which is like an 18mm on the Nex, plenty wide enough for my use. 

 

As soon as I found myself a certified pre-owned M240 I snapped it up, and have not used or carried the Nex since.  This is mainly due to it having an EVF, which as I said I do not care for.  Not even the one on the SL (I tried it).  At one point I bought a set of used Sony zooms, figuring to use the Nex as a casual carry-with, but the AF was abominably slow and hunted a lot.  I've got an older Rebel and it blows the Nex away in AF performance.

 

I'm sure the new CL is a dandy of a camera, but for 10X the price of my Nex 6 it ought to be!  Given the cost of a lightly-used minty M240 nowadays, even if I could stand an EVF I wouldn't consider the CL.  My own strictly personal viewpoint is that the M system with it's optomechanical rangefinder is the only reason I would ever consider paying the "Leica tax" for a camera.  In the mirrorless realm there are other very fine competitors.  I won't argue the Kool-Aid and mythology, if having a red dot inspires one to greater photography, that's totally understandable.  I'm a Leica fan for close to 50 years, but $2800 for an APS-C mirrorless EVF camera is just way more than I personally am willing to spend on one. 

[pgk]

Yes. If you get native lens (overlapping FL for M) for A6500 then it becomes alternate system and not a complementary system.

 

Which in itself is a risk for Leica. I have to say that in terms of the images, the Sony's do produce good files and I doubt that there will be a substantial difference to justify the price differential. Which leaves UI and 'family connections' in Leica's favour. I hope that this is sufficient to sell the CL but sadly not for me.

[chriscove]

I will put "my take" here. 

 

I owned a M9 for many years and "upgraded"to the Sony A7 series to replace my Canon's. I was able to eventually get rid of all my Canon cameras and lenses eventually and sold the M9 as I used it less. I love FF and really enjoy the A7's (I now have an A9 and A7R3-arriving tomorrow). These camera's are great functional camera's and do a great job with sports, wildlife and landscapes and offer a wide variety of lenses.

 

I wanted something small to use a a walk around camera (like I used my M9) so I went to the A6000's series but felt the controls were too complicated and the camera's felt clumsy. I then tired a Sony RXR1 Mk2 and again a great functional camera with amazing image quality but it lacks inspiration. 

 

I am considering the Leica CL because I want to be inspired similar to how my M9 inspired. I am fortunate that I can afford it. I would use the CL in place of the Sony RXR1 Mk2 and my A6300 (which I would sell). I am planning on renting one to see if it can fill the void left when I sold my M9. I find that when I want to do a formal landscape or shoot sports or birds I will grab my Sony's. But if I want to walk around with a small camera I often don't want to bother with the Sony's because they lack the inspiration to over come the inconvenience of taking a camera instead of just using my cell phone.

Edited November 29, 2017 by chriscove

[jmahto]

Which in itself is a risk for Leica. I have to say that in terms of the images, the Sony's do produce good files and I doubt that there will be a substantial difference to justify the price differential. Which leaves UI and 'family connections' in Leica's favour. I hope that this is sufficient to sell the CL but sadly not for me.

If someone doesn't have any M lens and starting afresh, then CL will be hard to justify. But then it is same with M as well for starting afresh. Why not buy A9 and excellent lens in comparison for high priced M10+M lens ? The same logic (or impulse/passion) that drives people to buy M10 will be in works here. It is a combination of performance, red dot and mythology.

 

I am sure Leica is not trying to sell same volume as Sony with A6500 to new entrants, but for existing Leica users, CL is more attractive than A6500.

[tonyniev]

Thanks for all the comments.  I still have not cancelled my pre order with B&H and still in the wait list with the Leica store...however here is my analysis so far as I absorb and mull on the different comments:

1. User Interface- I have been using Sony for 4 years now on the A7r and 3 years on the A6000, I have adapted and changes button settings to suit my workflows, so UI is not an issue with me on Sony. +1 Sony +1 Leica

2. I have both the A6000 and A7R, both are small and with autofocus similar to CL. CL is smaller than A7R but with zoom lens, not much difference.The image quality of the A7R full frame 37 megapixel is very good. +1 Sony see below.

3.  I only have 4 Leica lenses Summarit 50, 50 yr old Elmarit 28, that was in my M3 and used from eBay Elmarit 90 and 50 yr old Hektor 135mm alsowith the M3 and a new Voigtlander CV Heklar 15 III  with the M10.

 I have SonyZeiss 55 mm FE F1.8 Sony Zeiss 16-35 FE mm Sony 55-210 apsc Sony 16-55 apsc, Metabones EOS adapter to use with my Canon 7 lenses and an adapter Canon FD 2 lenses and Lecia M adapter. So I have more attachable lenses on the Sony. +1 Sony

4. I want to lighten my travel camera gears, in my last travel I brought the A7R with 16- 35 mm FE and 55-210 mm apsc lens and Leica M Summarit 50, Elmarit 28 and Heklar 15...there is an appeal to move to Leica but I will be lacking AF lenses on the CL, I preordered with the 18-55. +1 Sony and +1 Leica

 

Maybe I can delay and skip the CL black and wait for the silver which I prefer :-) and build up my Leica lenses

 

Here is an A&R image 16-35 mm and an M10 image with Elmarit 28

Sony

 

Leica M10

Edited November 30, 2017 by tonyniev

[tonyniev]

another image comparison 

 

M10 Elmarit 28

 

SonyA7R and 16-35 mm lens at 16 mm

[Mute-on]

Sell the Sonys, Canon, and everything not Leica.

Get the CL and 18-55 for an AF travel camera, and keep the M10 for your FF ultimate image quality option.

Ignoring the likelihood you won’t see any tangible differences in photos from both cameras, you will stop speculating about what system will work for you.

Alternatively, sell everything and get a Q.

Collections are for collectors or professionals, Tony. For everyone else, simple is good.

Regardless, I like all the photos above.

Cheers

J

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[tonyniev]

Sell the Sonys, Canon, and everything not Leica.

Get the CL and 18-55 for an AF travel camera, and keep the M10 for your FF ultimate image quality option.

Ignoring the likelihood you won’t see any tangible differences in photos from both cameras, you will stop speculating about what system will work for you.

Alternatively, sell everything and get a Q.

Collections are for collectors or professionals, Tony. For everyone else, simple is good.

Regardless, I like all the photos above.

Cheers

J

 

 

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Chances are I will do that, ...  Thanks for the comment and liking the images.

Edited November 30, 2017 by tonyniev