Thoughts on Leica's APS-C System

[Wojtek]

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Hey!
 

I hope I put this topic in a right forum. For me CL is Leica most "representative" APS-C, that's why it's here.

I was thinking about Leica's APS-C system and hey, it finally looks like a very promising system! 

 

Here's what we've got today:

• 4 AF prime lenses
• 3 AF zoom lenses
• 1 beautiful / amateur camera
• 1 practical / semi-pro camera
• 1 professional big brother with its huge down-to-business lenses

 

Also, every single camera / lens has

• Highest build quality anywhere, no matter the category (TL/SL beat Hasselblad X1D via first round knockout; I'm not yet sure about CL and how it compares ie to Fuji x100f, but it almost surely beats any Sony, and TL/SL beat any Sony hands down)
• Top image quality in it's categories (cameras and lenses. Probably never "best in the world", but always pretty close)
• Best IQ with M-lenses (I think that based on ReidReviews TL, SL and CL are simply better suited for RF/Leica M lenses than any other non-RF cameras on the market; only Sony could compete which has lower IQ but offers AF via adapter)
• Top controls in it's markets (TL in smartphone market? But seriously, in the world where almost any camera's IQ is "great enough", it's the controls and ease of use that gets more and more important and Leica shines here. Not always perfect, but it's most often a matter of taste rather than facts - CL's controls could be too restricted for some, but overall I think they're close to some peoples idea of perfection)

What do you think about this system as it is today? How does it compare to other systems? What are it's strengths and weaknesses? 

 

(I have to add my single biggest weakness of at least TL2 -not sure about CL- which is it's inability to work with external flashes / studio lights. Simply put when you set your camera for ie 1/160th, f/5.6 and iso100, all what the LCD / evf shows you is basically pure darkness. It only lightens up for a fraction of a second to focus and then you're blind again. This camera right now is useless with additional non-continous lights. Very un-pro)

 

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[android_pt]

The CL really appeals to me.

I am looking for a digital camera to go along with my M7 and this seems to be the perfect fit for me as it allows me to use my M lenses.

I have considered a digital M, I even had an M8, but they are either too bulky or too expensive (M10).

 

The X100F is one of the alternative options I also considered, I really love that leaf shutter and optical viewfinder, but it won't allow me to use my M lenses (albeit I mainly shoot the 35mm on the M7)

Or the newly released X-E3 which doesn't have the optical viewfinder of the X100F neither the leaf shutter for "ninja" street photography but it would allow me to use my M lenses on digital.

 

I really look forward to see some comparisons between the CL and the X-E3/X100F.

Edited November 26, 2017 by android_pt

[scott kirkpatrick]

 

(I have to add my single biggest weakness of at least TL2 -not sure about CL- which is it's inability to work with external flashes / studio lights. Simply put when you set your camera for ie 1/160th, f/5.6 and iso100, all what the LCD / evf shows you is basically pure darkness. It only lightens up for a fraction of a second to focus and then you're blind again. This camera right now is useless with additional non-continous lights. Very un-pro)

 

That got addressed for the SL only with firmware 3.0, which let the WYSWYG EVF be turned off in Manual mode, optionally.  Let's ask for the same here.  It's not just pros with studio flashes that have the requirement, although Leica seemed to think so.

[LocalHero1953]

That got addressed for the SL only with firmware 3.0, which let the WYSWYG EVF be turned off in Manual mode, optionally.  Let's ask for the same here.  It's not just pros with studio flashes that have the requirement, although Leica seemed to think so.

In the CL you can turn off exposure preview in M mode as well - the same PASM/PAS options.

[Jeff S]

Another top trait for Leica is the quality of their built-in viewing systems: top OVF with the S; top EVF with the SL; and the best digital M RF viewing now with the M10.

 

How I see and focus remains a priority; if that doesn't pass the test, the rest doesn't matter.

 

Jeff

[tom0511]

I think: 

- dx sensor is a very nice compromise between size, cost , IQ and DOF.

- I think it is nice that Leica offers very good dx lenses (some other brands offer great FF lenses but only second glass dx lenses)

- I also believe it is great how Leica has achieve to combine lenses and bodies from different lines (M lenses on tl, or SL lenses on T, Or S lenses on SL etc etc)

- I like the CL a lot, but I still hope for a more professional (comparaple to SL) body for TL lenses, with sensor cleaning, OIS, 2 sd card slots etc.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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What do you think about this system as it is today? How does it compare to other systems? What are it's strengths and weaknesses? 

 

 

1. I don't see the SL or TL beating the X1D in build quality. As someone who owns all of them I'd say they're about equal.

 

2. the "amateur" camera can't have an EVF and flash at the same time. The "semi-pro" camera lacks dual card slots and has a battery that lasts less than 300 shots. The "pro" camera has 3 currently available lenses. No wider than 24mm. No native macro. Nothing longer than 280mm. In a year there will still only be two L mount lenses faster than f2 and they're both standard lenses (although both are epic).

 

3. The CL and TL share a lens mount and sensor but use a completely different layout and different batteries. The CL and SL have touch screens but you can't access the menus via touch. I would have much preferred that Leica kept either the lovely TL menus OR the 4 button SL/S system which is very highly praised. Leica has great menus but why do they keep trying to re-invent the wheel?

 

4. The TL lenses are most likely best in class. I think they are. But other systems with IS will often outperform them in the real world. And my like of Leica lenses comes down to a personal preference in the way they draw rather than measurable IQ differences.

 

5. Limited exposure times and mandatory long exposure noise reduction are stupid. Yet Leica just refuses to enter the 21st century by accepting a modern sensor doesn't need LENR after a 1 second exposure.

 

6. The new camera has had all the connectors, GPS and internal memory removed. And there's no GPS option. We've lost USBC charging which was insanely useful. There's no options for external audio to go with the 4K video. Not even via an accessory grip.

 

Don't get me wrong. I don't dislike Leica. My CL order is in. It's a fun little camera, with a few stellar lenses to play with. But if you're even remotely interested in video or sports/action or limited DOF portraiture or commercial use, it's not the right camera as a daily shooter. The CL appears to be a companion to the M10, with AF for oldies, like me but with a smaller sensor so they don't kill the digital M.

 

I think that comparisons of Leica's to any other brand is pointless. They can't compete in any of the normal measures. Zeiss lenses on a Sony are just as good. Every other brand has more features, more pickles, more, more, more. And for less. Less. Less. If you want features or are price sensitive you'll never buy a Leica. If you want a Leica then you're not interested what every one else does.

 

Most people make purchase decisions mostly based on emotion and then defend those decisions with logic. It's the way we're wired. Buying a CL is an emotional decision. Some of feel bad that we spent that much money on a camera with less "stuff' so we come up with all the logical reasons it makes sense as a purchase decision. Me... I wanted it and I can afford it. I know that despite it's many many flaws and short comings I'll enjoy shooting with it than my Fujis or Sonys. I'm not deluding myself my pictures will get better or the hot girls will think I'm prettier because I own a Leica or ten. Even this ugly little duckling is an object of desire. It'll give me some pleasure and occasionally put a smile on my face.

 

Leica do two things well. They make great optics and they make cameras that you want to pick up. Every. Day. The CL isn't a "semi-pro" camera (whatever that is and although I will be using mine as a working camera). It's hobbled next to pretty much every other currently available APSC camera there is. Heck even the Canon mirrorless is better featured than the CL. You won't get better pictures from a Leica. Leica's are almost always less featured, less practical and more expensive. Canon, Nikon and Sony will always be a more sensible choice. They're the cameras you buy with your head. Leica's are cameras you buy with your heart. That should be enough.

 

Gordon

[sillbeers15]

The CL's 24MP APSC sensor is only a shade smaller in physical dimension over the 10MP M8.

[Guest VVJ]

The CL appears to be a companion to the M10, with AF for oldies, like me but with a smaller sensor so they don't kill the digital M.

 

Interesting post Gordon!  Food for thought as always.

 

About the CL being the companion to the M10 I quite frankly always saw the T in that role...   For me the main raison d'etre of the T has always been to provide an additional body (with minimal AF lenses) for M-shooters, hence also the Visoflex...

 

I saw the CL more targeted at X and Q shooters, but I haven't seen the camera yet, so perhaps I am wrong, and Leica decided to replace the T in that role with the CL.

Edited November 27, 2017 by JorisV

[IkarusJohn]

It can be whatever you want it to be ...

[helged]

For most of the systems I have used, it's mostly with Leica bodies and lenses I have the feeling of having an instrument in my hands. Not always, but most of the time. And I appreciate the history, and the manual assembly and craftmanship of many of the Leica products. Even the top-end Nikon D850 feels less of an instrument than, e.g., a perfectly calibrated M264 (mono), or the SL. Ok, I'm (likely) biased, but this is my feeling.

 

That many (most) of the Leicas have limitations in one way or another is less of a problem, it simply means that I am forced to focus on and are driven to explore the possibilities. That being said, I have 'given in' on one type of photography, and that is wild life photogr where Leica's modern offerings are too limited (in my view and based on my experience, although others demonstrate the opposite).

 

The notion of feeling is easily said by one that is not dependent of making money on taking photos... Professional photographers that have to deliver day and night, summer and winter, in court and in the wilderness, often on very short notice, may think and prioritise differently.

 

Personally, I am glad that there is a diversity to consider and to chose from. Monoculture and mainstream are boring and, in many aspects, unwelcome.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Interesting post Gordon!  Food for thought as always.

 

About the CL being the companion to the M10 I quite frankly always saw the T in that role...   For me the main raison d'etre of the T has always been to provide an additional body (with minimal AF lenses) for M-shooters, hence also the Visoflex...

 

I saw the CL more targeted at X and Q shooters, but I haven't seen the camera yet, so perhaps I am wrong, and Leica decided to replace the T in that role with the CL.

 

I think when you hold one you'll see it. The CL has the same back as an M10. Almost exactly. Same shape with no grip. Same VF position. At the Sydney launch I heard it mentioned a few times, as well.

 

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

For most of the systems I have used, it's mostly with Leica bodies and lenses I have the feeling of having an instrument in my hands. Not always, but most of the time. And I appreciate the history, and the manual assembly and craftmanship of many of the Leica products. Even the top-end Nikon D850 feels less of an instrument than, e.g., a perfectly calibrated M264 (mono), or the SL. Ok, I'm (likely) biased, but this is my feeling.

 

That many (most) of the Leicas have limitations in one way or another is less of a problem, it simply means that I am forced to focus on and are driven to explore the possibilities. That being said, I have 'given in' on one type of photography, and that is wild life photogr where Leica's modern offerings are too limited (in my view and based on my experience, although others demonstrate the opposite).

 

The notion of feeling is easily said by one that is not dependent of making money on taking photos... Professional photographers that have to deliver day and night, summer and winter, in court and in the wilderness, often on very short notice, may think and prioritise differently.

 

Personally, I am glad that there is a diversity to consider and to chose from. Monoculture and mainstream are boring and, in many aspects, unwelcome.

 

That's a really nice way of putting it. I like the "instrument" reference and may have to steal it.

 

Now days I choose to not worry about the things a Leica can't do and concentrate on the in finite number of things it can do. When it comes to things like wildlife I just make alternate arrangements. A Panasonic G9 anf the very nice Pana-Leica 100-400 are excellent for wildlife and combined cost much less than a single Leica lens. Doesn't mean I don't like the brand. It just means I need other stuff to compliment it. I don't get the same enjoyment from those other cameras but they get the job done. And maybe, hopefully leica will eventually cover those things. But until then....

 

Gordon

 

Gordon

[jaapv]

The CL with any long Leica zoom/tele  (most are up to 280 AKA 400) will do just fine for wildlife with optimal IQ, Gordon. The Panasonic /Leica DX combo will be great for 400-800 dual-stabilized and fast AF. It is what I will do

[LeicaS2]

Jaapv,

What adapters do you use to mount the Panasonic lens to an TL mount?

[stefans4]

Post #6 above (Tom0511): "... but only second glass dx lenses..."

 

 

Very true, and "second glass" seems like a first-class description :-) Very apt.

 

 

Thanks (and still smiling),

 

 

Stefan

Edited November 27, 2017 by stefans4

[jaapv]

Jaapv,

What adapters do you use to mount the Panasonic lens to an TL mount?

I won't. It goes on my GX8

[Ko.Fe.]

Fuji X-Pro has EVF and OVF. For some EVF is panacea from problems with eyes, for other like me OVF is only solution to avoid motion sickness. 

Our older daughter is pro (paid for) and she is using FF DLSR, because of lens line and effective TTL flash. I'm not pro, but do some semi-pro if asked and not for money. I choose same brand as daughter have because of lenses, TTL flash and batteries lasting for many hours in freezing temperatures. But APS-C for smaller size and weight. And if here is no image stabilizer it must be good flash TTL system for quick and predictable results with small apertures and under low to moderate light. I doubt what Leica APS-C system have it as good and effective as DSLR brands...

But I like my M Leica cameras for documentary and the street.

To me all cropped sensor Leica cameras are nice looking and only cameras I like for P&S style. I have no interest in any other brand, expect Ricoh with GRII, but only Leica makes cameras really nice.

Why those APS-C can't be just nicest P&S cameras ever made for casual use, pleasure to own and just as backup?  Seriously, I'm so picky on it, Fuji and else are no joy for P&S, IMO.

 

But original Barnack's cameras were put in professional use like no any other cameras before. Or Andy Warhol's Polaroids... So, with CL it could be. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Ko.Fe.

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[tom0511]

 

Post #6 above (Tom0511): "... but only second glass dx lenses..."

 

 

Very true, and "second glass" seems like a first-class description :-) Very apt.

 

 

Thanks (and still smiling),

 

 

Stefan

 

 

I didnt do it on purpose but maybe there was something going on in the back of my brain

[earleygallery]

I'm not sure that there is an APS-C system. There are two very different APS-C bodies and a small selection of lenses that share a common mount. 

 

I have said before and will say again, Leica could become THE APS-C system. High quality from a smaller package very much in the same way as the first Barnack cameras and lenses became famous for. 

 

Nikon and Canon both offer 'pro' spec APS-C bodies but the APS-C lenses are mostly aimed at the amateur user. Leica would need to add some fast primes and zooms and a much better specified body. It will be interesting to see if Leica go down that route or stick firmly in the amateur camp for the TL/CL bodies/lenses.