Thoughts on M10 after six months

[pico]

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If we can put men on the moon Leica could easily do all of the above.

 

Oh, so you are part of the team that put men on the moon! Glad to meet you. NASA is publicly  funded so may we see your tax statements, engineering credentials and financial bonafides?

[Reciprocity]

Oh, so you are part of the team that put men on the moon! Glad to meet you. NASA is publicly  funded so may we see your tax statements, engineering credentials and financial bonafides?

 

 

It's a typo, it is supposed to say "If oui can put a man on the mewn." 

 

I also think the M is about perfect the way it is but at some point, there is going to have to be a way to focus in super low light if the sensor tech allows great image quality at those levels. As it stands right now, I sometimes have to turn the camera off in the lowest of light to focus since even at the dimmest settings, the frame lines make it hard to use the RF. 

 

As long as we keep buying Leica products and keep them in biz, they will continue down the logical R&D path.

[pico]

I sometimes have to turn the camera off in the lowest of light to focus since even at the dimmest settings, the frame lines make it hard to use the RF.

 

Excellent point. Could there be a way to dim the frame lines, perhaps with optional auto enabled with a choice of levels?

.

[pgh]

Weird. These days, as they did ten years ago, the prints from my 10MP DMR (up to A3) still look as crisp and attractive as any modern camera's one. This obsession with megapixels is purely quantitative and not qualitative.

A3 is a relatively small sized print, and I would agree that resolution here isn't as important. Dynamic range still matters though. And if you regularly print larger than A3 - as I do, it leaves you wanting. The M is perfect within a certain set of restrictions yes, as is most every camera. To say that the interest in MP is only quantitative disregards a lot of qualitative improvements over the years. If there weren't actual, noticeable improvements it wouldn't matter. People don't flock to 28 mp phones because it's 28 mp of garbage. Newer sensors with higher resolution literally change what you can shoot and how you can display it. The qualitative difference is significant, if you've ever actually used it to see. 

[pgh]

This is the first I have heard of this, care to shed more light on it?

There have been a few posts from people with flawed sensors where a line across the image shows up at iso 1600. Actually, I just did a test and it is still noticeable at 800 and actually detectable at 400. Sending mine back soon. We'll see what they say...a constellation of issues...not really acceptable. 

[Jon Warwick]

I’d agree that A3 isn’t a large print in my view.

 

I’d also agree that only 10mp is absolutely fine for that small print.

 

The problem I have is I print much larger, and 24mp is pretty thin there. Especially when you know the 50 APO has so much left in the tank.

 

I guess this “sweet spot” of 24mp FF will eventually change ....after all, Leica is shrinking pixel sizes all around us, now that we have Leica small sensor APS-C cameras at 24mp like the TL2 and presumably CL. Same thing too if we see a potentially much higher megapixel S series.

 

If people believe 24mp is the sweet spot for full frame, are you thinking Leica has now gone beyond the equivalent sweet spot for APS-C?!

[jaapv]

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To most people - non-professionals, that is (and that is whom cameras are built for, as that is where the $$$ come from...)-  A3+ is about the largest print they will go for.

I'm not denying that there is a mostly professional need for larger sizes, but those will require cameras built for the much smaller group of specialist professionals.

If Leica wants to keep those professional users on board they will have to provide something like a high resolution SL. But it will not be their bread-and-butter M series.

[Reciprocity]

Excellent point. Could there be a way to dim the frame lines, perhaps with optional auto enabled with a choice of levels?

.

Yes but even in using the red frame line option on the M240 I sometimes had to turn the camera off in order to really concentrate on focusing, it was that low of light. It’s actually not a big deal, I am used to it.

[DaveNC]

I thought I'd just share a few thoughts on my experience traveling and photographing with the M10 the last few months.

 

1) Getting the M10 was the best decision I ever made as a photographer. The connection I have to my work has never been so clear, especially when I am shooting on the street. I can quickly change settings through the external knobs and have learned to meter distances before hand. Even when I do not perfectly capture a subject in motion I am content with learning to get better at nailing a shot. Simply put, I want to shoot with the M all the time and don't even pick up my other cameras. It's that addictive.

 

2) Ive noticed from shooting in several different countries that nobody is drawn to the M the way they are other bigger dslr's and bigger lenses. I feel my subjects do not react to the M the way they do to a lot of other pro gear. Nobody has even noticed the Leica red dot and said anything to me. Ive been shooting with the silver model and the only comments Ive gotten in public are, "cool retro camera," by several different people. It makes me feel completely at ease taking pictures up close to subjects and just photographing like any other normal person.

 

3) My initial worries about the M10 only being 24mp have completely vanished. I do not see any discernible difference in image quality to a 36mp camera I also have used. The Leica glass is good enough that I feel comfortable using it even for landscapes and never think of reaching for my other camera. I also have made prints and they are as good as any other higher mp camera.

 

4) The compressed files on the M10 have turned out to be an added bonus. I can fit more photos on one memory card, using both raw and jpeg mode, than I ever have before. I brought ten sd cards on my last ten day trip and filled up 3. Normally I would have filled up 7 or 8. This has been a nice surprise for me.

 

5) The small Leica lenses are a dream to use. I currently am using the 50 summilux and 35 summicron and can easily switch between the two while carrying the extra one in my pocket. This is perhaps a key thing about Leica M's that is often overlooked but which makes walking around with a camera a hundred times better.

 

6) I couldn't be happier with my decision to get an M10 even though it's a pricey purchase in today's digital era. I feel it will serve me well for awhile and do not have any desire to get another camera. For me at least, it's made me get back to being a photographer first and that has been well worth the expense.

 

I totally agree...  Same list for my M-D.

[DwF]

I totally agree...  Same list for my M-D.

lurking here.....exception (correct me if I am mistaken) M-D does not compress files.

[NigelG]

lurking here.....exception (correct me if I am mistaken) M-D does not compress files.

M-D has the same lossless-compressed DNG setting as the M10, just no jpeg option (amongst others........)

 

Like DaveNC - Same list for my M-D except I take the 28 cron & 50 lux...

[Foxtwo]

Ah, adding an EVF, adjustable diopter in the eyepiece and a hinge on the bottom plate for starters, would help.

If we can put men on the moon Leica could easily do all of the above.

 

The Leica Kool-Aid Brigade can save your breath - do the above and call it M-10b and all the "RF" experience folks can keep the rangefinder M's and feel all warm and fuzzy.

 

 

"We landed on the moon, why can't we...." has been a longstanding complaint since July 21, 1969. It's the only negative aspect of NASA faking the moon landings...

[Foxtwo]

Hi Eric1, where are you from? it seems you’re coming from a DSLR, and that the M10 is your first digital M, is that correct?

 

 

He's in the US. I remember Eric going ballistic while waiting for delivery during his order process at BH, then proclaiming that he'd have the camera in a few days from some other source, which failed to produce, and caused him to almost cancel everything. Glad he got his camera, and learned that it is about the photography, not the retail experience.

 

I've found that the Rangefinder and easy access controls have made me a better photographer as well. The M10 won't make you a great photographer, but it will definitely make a DSLR driver into a better, thinking photographer. 

 

Love mine, and only use DSLR for sports, where they excel.

 

Now trying to figure out what my next lens should be. Am thinking of adding the 90mm Summarit since I travel constantly. The 90mm Summicron APO is probably too big and not worth the expense. This would round out my kit of 21, 35 and 90 for travel work.

 

The M10 was a renaissance, putting the joy back into photography. 

[Guest]

I got my M10 back in late June and my impressions so far are that the camera is step up from the M240, ( I had two and one of which I traded in on the M10 purchase ), but it's not a giant leap by any means. 

I've listed a few things that are not positive for me elsewhere in these forums, but here they are again for what they're worth.

 

The ASA dial, ho-hum.....

I've found nothing wrong with changing ASA on the M240 and anyway I don't switch ASA that often, certainly not often enough to warrant the M10's external knob so for me it's something I now just ignore.

 

The difficulty of seeing the full 28mm frame-lines in the "new improved viewfinder" is for me as primarily a wide-angle lens shooter on the M's, a real disappointment.

 

On the positive side the size of the M10, or lack of it is really nice though, better in the hand for me than the M240, but again not a quantum leap.

 

And battery life? Not a problem. I've two batteries and rarely use the second one on a day out.......but then I don't shoot many frames or chimp that much, if at all.

 

I am seeing one odd piece of behavior with the M10 that I don't know whether it's "normal" or not, and that is if I turn off the camera when it's in "Play" mode with an image on the LCD screen that image takes a long time, several minutes or more, to go dark before the camera decides to switch completely off. Mostly I have to turn the camera back on again with the image still on the LCD, hit Play which kills the image then after which the camera will close down normally when turned off. Odd.

Anyone else experiencing this?

[a.noctilux]

 

...

 

I am seeing one odd piece of behavior with the M10 that I don't know whether it's "normal" or not, and that is if I turn off the camera when it's in "Play" mode with an image on the LCD screen that image takes a long time, several minutes or more, to go dark before the camera decides to switch completely off. Mostly I have to turn the camera back on again with the image still on the LCD, hit Play which kills the image then after which the camera will close down normally when turned off. Odd.

Anyone else experiencing this?

 

I have never experienced that "Play then off" long response.

Just to be sure, I have try and the shut down is within 1 to 2 seconds.

[zlatkob]

My layman's impression is that the higher the megapixel count, the more apparent motion blur becomes if hand-held, so a self-defeating evolution.  Is this true?

 

I think it is true but in very limited circumstances.  Think about it this way:  when a camera shakes, it doesn't know how many megapixels its sensor has.  The amount of blur is exactly the same whether the camera has 10, 24 or 50 megapixels.  So the question is whether you can better see the blur with more megapixels.  That is, whether the motion blur is more "apparent".  

 

I think the answer depends on how much you enlarge the resulting picture.  Generally, the greater the enlargement, the more the blur becomes apparent.  Conversely, the lesser the enlargement, the less the blur becomes apparent.  A larger version of an image will tend to show more blur, while a smaller version of the same image will tend to look sharper.  

 

At typical print sizes and screen sizes of, say, 10 to 30 inches, I suspect that the degree of apparent motion blur between a 24mp camera and a 50mp camera is pretty much the same.  For each camera at those print/screen sizes, the image is showing more pixels than our eyes can resolve anyway.  In order to see a difference, you have to get to larger print sizes, or greater enlargements on screen.  So the question is really how large will the viewer be viewing the final image?  Greater megapixel images tend to get viewed at a greater enlargement, on screen at least, in which case we tend to see more apparent motion blur.  But if our prints don't get any larger, and if we view them on the same size screens (without going to 100%), then it doesn't really matter.

 

It is very simple: A motion blur line (or rather ellipsoid) can fall within the diameter of one pixel, and you will not see it. If, however, the pixel count increases thus the pixels will get smaller, and the same motion blur line will be recorded by two, or even three pixels, making it visible as unsharpness.

 

 

At normal viewing sizes, we don't see an individual pixel or even two or three.  So whether a motion blur falls within one pixel or within two or three pixels (because of greater pixel density) makes no difference by itself.  The point at which it makes a difference is if the image with greater pixel density is enlarged to a correspondingly greater degree.  In other words, if both images are viewed at 100% pixels, then, yes, you will see more apparent motion blur in the higher megapixel image, but only because you are viewing a larger image (not because there is more motion blur).  In normal viewing of finished photographs, we see an image, not individual pixels.  So motion blur described by one pixel or by two or three (because of greater pixel density) will look exactly the same, and will literally be the same size if both images are viewed at the same output size (e.g. a 30-inch print).

[Reciprocity]

Zlatkob, the problem with what you are saying is “we”. We does not apply to all of us so you should not use “we” in the capacity of opinion that you are using.

 

Peel back a couple of posts of mine to read about double page ads, retina screens and take that in. I see something entirely different than “We”.

[Eric1]

Hello Eric,

 

Completely agree with your thoughts: the M10 is by far Leica's best digital M yet.

 

However, there is an area where IMHO there should go some work for the next M: its responsiveness. Film M's are always ready and by far the best cameras for street shooting. In contrast, a digital M  needs either to wake up or, if it is "on", has quite a lag  before it is able to take the shot. I don't feel a significant improvement over the M240 in this area.

 

There must be a way to wake up the next M when you raise it to your eye (motion sensors, maybe?) and to shorten the shutter lag. Something like this would translate into much better usability for capturing fleeting moments, a feature that made Leica film cameras famous for.

For street shooting I will leave the M on at all times and carry a second charged battery. I have had no problems with this set up lasting all day. I don't use live view or go through my photos on the screen and if I am taking a break for lunch or something I will turn the camera off. Ive never had any real lag with the M10 besides focusing quickly and accurately which takes practice and occasionally using distance metering. If you can master distance metering, it may help shave a few seconds off a shot. Hope that helps.

 

I shoot both the leica m10 and analog Leica m/a. I think they're both quick, so not sure if one is faster than the other but I do find the film leica to be a more pure experience if that's your thing. Just remember to load the film properly and make sure it's advancing.

[Eric1]

Hi Eric1, where are you from? it seems you’re coming from a DSLR, and that the M10 is your first digital M, is that correct?

Yes, that's correct. The Leica M10 was actually my first Leica, well if you don't count the Sofort instant camera. I started out using a Nikon dslr for about two years until I felt compelled to make the conversion to something perfect for street photography, which is where my real passion lies. To clarify, I don't mean street portraiture ala Bruce Gilden etc. but more like Cartier-Bresson or Alex Webb, who would today probably be considered travel photographers because they never shoot people an inch away from their face, lol. I like being able to provide context to my photos alongside people, creating visual narratives. The M10 has been perfect for this and I haven't really used my other cameras since.

 

I am from the us but I travel all around. I am currently based in Tokyo, Japan.

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[Eric1]

Appreciate all the positive comments from M10 users on here. I don't have time to respond to everyone but glad there are many others who are enjoying there M's as much as me. Looking forward to the next six months and beyond taking photographs and just embracing life.