Steve Spencer Posted June 26, 2017 Share #21 Posted June 26, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Well, if we follow that reasoning, the SL was the gamechanger, using M lenses it weighs approximately the same as the M10, the size is not much different from the M10 with Visoflex and the camera is more versatile with a better EVF than the M10. Better AF zoom lenses too The M10 is first and foremost a rangefinder, the EVF a practical add-on (as is the EVF2 on the M240), much improved, but still an evolution. As are all the other advances over previous models. A desirable camera? yes. The best digital rangefinder ever built? certainly. The most versatile one? - err..no that is the M240. A great evolution? yes. But not a gamechanger. Those were the M3 and M8. As for telenses, yes, it is possible and I will do so happily with good effect - on the M240. If I want practical long focal length photography, modern MFT cameras are more suitable if one wants to keep it small and light, as are ff DSLRs and mirrorless. The dichtomy there is in the sensor format - full frame long telelenses will eclipse camera size and weight, no matter which focusing system the camera uses. There is not much to choose between an M10 with the Vario-Elmar 105-280 (which is huge and and heavy) and a Canon 5Dsomething with the equivalent Canon lens. Or the SL with the 90-280 for that matter. For my uses the M10 is the most versatile as well, but we are all likely to weight versatility differently. The much better EVF, better viewfinder, and better high ISO performance all allow the M10 greater versatility over the M240, but the video capability (weak as it is) and the better battery allow the M240 to be more versatile in some ways. For me the advantages of the M10 make it more versatile and I weight these things more highly, but others may weigh the M240 advantages more highly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 26, 2017 Posted June 26, 2017 Hi Steve Spencer, Take a look here M10 the game changer?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Ozytripper Posted June 26, 2017 Author Share #22 Posted June 26, 2017 A new design 80-200 would not be substantially lighter and only marginally better - but probably 6 or 7 times as expensive. Leica still regards the M10 as a rangefinde- and justly so-, so don''t expect anything. BTW, if you want a light and small, and surprisingly good midrange zoom - the Olympus Zuiko 75-150, costs about 100$ for a mint example - factor in an adapter and a CLA and you will have a fantastic little zoom under 250$. All older zoom lenses need a CLA They pump air, resulting in internal haze. Washing the windows will make a spectacular difference. As for macro. The Macro-Elmar-M 90 is indeed not a true macro lens. But the old Visoflex2/3-Bellows M combination with a Tele-Elmar 135 lenshead is a hard game to beat despite it being a Rube Goldberg contraption. Not only is the EVF that can hold a torch to the visoflex ground glass not yet born, I have yet to see a Macro lens that betters the Tele=Elmar. Sadly I have to agree with you that I'll unlikely see a new range of M zooms or telephotos. Just wishing out loud. and thanks for the heads up on alternative zooms. I have only taken out my 80-200mm once as it is just too heavy and without image stability not very useable for long periods. I bought the M macro adapter today and the magnification is quite impressive on a 50mm lens. Have yet to shoot it except for some in-store test shots.I am no expert in macro and is mainly a wide angle to telephoto shooter. Recently on a trip to China I was almost shooting scenery exclusively on apsc 100-400mm with 1.4x teleconverter. No zooming with the legs as we are at the cliffs edge or water's edge Its not too bad carrying either a Fuji XT2 or Xpro2 with a 100-400mm as backup because they can use the Leica lenses too. Treating them as a second body but extending my reach to 800m. Then again Leica may surprise us Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted June 26, 2017 Share #23 Posted June 26, 2017 I would love to see a 75mm to 180mm f/5.6 zoom for the Leica M, and it could be small for such zooms (but not compared to rangefinder lenses). I think it would make an intriguing set with the WATE and MATE. I suppose we could call it the TATE. I don't think we will get it, however, and I have to admit as much as I would like to see such a lens I doubt I would buy it. I am quite happy with my R 180 f/3.4 APO and the 2X APO teleconverter for the M. That server my long lens needs quite well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobbywise Posted June 26, 2017 Share #24 Posted June 26, 2017 The M10 probably is a game changer. Mine arrived today, and I've only used it a little bit. Sure it has the high ISO support, etc., but at the moment (early days of course) for me, I still prefer the M9 and MM. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
furcafe Posted June 27, 2017 Share #25 Posted June 27, 2017 While I agree that the SL & 240 are more versatile cameras, you clearly have a different definition of "weighs approximately the same" , since the SL weighs 847g w/battery v. 660g w/battery for the M10 (& yes, I have handled both cameras in the same store w/the same lens). The Sony a7ii & a7Rii are closer to the M10 at 599 & 625g w/battery. Well, if we follow that reasoning, the SL was the gamechanger, using M lenses it weighs approximately the same as the M10, the size is not much different from the M10 with Visoflex and the camera is more versatile with a better EVF than the M10. Better AF zoom lenses too The M10 is first and foremost a rangefinder, the EVF a practical add-on (as is the EVF2 on the M240), much improved, but still an evolution. As are all the other advances over previous models. A desirable camera? yes. The best digital rangefinder ever built? certainly. The most versatile one? - err..no that is the M240. A great evolution? yes. But not a gamechanger. Those were the M3 and M8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulsydaus Posted June 27, 2017 Share #26 Posted June 27, 2017 As jaap noted, the M3 and the M8 were the 'game changers'. One started it all, and even Leica once said a digital version wasn't feasible. Jeff For me it was m9...? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted June 27, 2017 Share #27 Posted June 27, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Whether the M10 is a game changer or not is for history to judge. I have had mine for about 4 weeks and, while it is not perfect and is more 'basic' than its immediate predecessors, it is, for me, a much nicer camera to use than the M240 in every way as regards size, handling, menus etc. I use M digitals in a traditional way with my main lenses being 24mm, 28mm, 35mm, 50mm and 75mm. The M10 scores also with the ability to use my M50 DR which was not possible with the M240. Outside of that I have the WATE and some 90mms. I occasionally use the add on EVF and rear screen when circumstances require. I have never tried to use large telephotos or zooms on a digital M. Up to recently I used Nikon gear for that type of work, but in recent years with the advance of arthritis I have found that carrying it was a bit of a burden. Recently I traded in most of my Nikon gear for Fuji X series gear and it suits me perfectly for what I need it for. I tried an SL, but found it too big, just like my Nikon gear which I had traded in. The M10 is perfect for my needs (I never shoot video) and I can use the Fuji X series for anything that the M10 does not cover eg sports or wildlife. Suitable camera equipment is very much a matter of personal taste and there are no absolute rights and wrongs. Game changer or not, I am really happy with the M10. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 27, 2017 Share #28 Posted June 27, 2017 Yes, William,but note that the OP enthuses about the use of the M10 as an EVF camera. He does not even mention the rangefinder part in his post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted June 27, 2017 Author Share #29 Posted June 27, 2017 Whether the M10 is a game changer or not is for history to judge. I have had mine for about 4 weeks and, while it is not perfect and is more 'basic' than its immediate predecessors, it is, for me, a much nicer camera to use than the M240 in every way as regards size, handling, menus etc. I use M digitals in a traditional way with my main lenses being 24mm, 28mm, 35mm, 50mm and 75mm. The M10 scores also with the ability to use my M50 DR which was not possible with the M240. Outside of that I have the WATE and some 90mms. I occasionally use the add on EVF and rear screen when circumstances require. I have never tried to use large telephotos or zooms on a digital M. Up to recently I used Nikon gear for that type of work, but in recent years with the advance of arthritis I have found that carrying it was a bit of a burden. Recently I traded in most of my Nikon gear for Fuji X series gear and it suits me perfectly for what I need it for. I tried an SL, but found it too big, just like my Nikon gear which I had traded in. The M10 is perfect for my needs (I never shoot video) and I can use the Fuji X series for anything that the M10 does not cover eg sports or wildlife. Suitable camera equipment is very much a matter of personal taste and there are no absolute rights and wrongs. Game changer or not, I am really happy with the M10. William Hehehe, Another Like minded Leica user. Looks like we have similar issues with Camera gear weight and have the same solution i.e. Leica M10 and Fuji bodies. Yes the SL system is just way too heavy. I had one for the weekend and just gave up on it Also there can be different game changers The M8 was a game changer in that it brought the Leica Rangefinder camera into the digital age The M10 is a game changer in that it opens up the Rangefinder to other genres of photography that in the past was not possible or perhaps too cumbersome (all this despite the fact that the EVF is an add on and there is no In body image stabilization). The "game" never stays still. It's really a matter of how big an innovation to be considered a Game Changer. My wish list of lenses will be: 16-28mm F4 28-90mm F4 90-280mm F4 instead of 2.8 to reduce weight. The F4 is balanced by the higher iso capabilities and in future iterations of the M the ISO performance is only going to improve 200mm F2.8 telephoto 300mm F2.8 telephoto An APO 2X teleconverter Fingers crossed Leica will realize that the M is now a very versatile tool that can attract a bigger and wider customer base Also in body stabilization and maybe license Techart to make an auto focus adapter for those who would like auto-focus For the purist they don't have to buy any of these new lenses or the auto focus adapter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 27, 2017 Share #30 Posted June 27, 2017 Hehehe, Another Like minded Leica user. Looks like we have similar issues with Camera gear weight and have the same solution i.e. Leica M10 and Fuji bodies. Yes the SL system is just way too heavy. I had one for the weekend and just gave up on it Also there can be different game changers The M8 was a game changer in that it brought the Leica Rangefinder camera into the digital age The M10 is a game changer in that it opens up the Rangefinder to other genres of photography that in the past was not possible or perhaps too cumbersome (all this despite the fact that the EVF is an add on and there is no In body image stabilization). The "game" never stays still. It's really a matter of how big an innovation to be considered a Game Changer. My wish list of lenses will be: 16-28mm F4 28-90mm F4 90-280mm F4 instead of 2.8 to reduce weight. The F4 is balanced by the higher iso capabilities and in future iterations of the M the ISO performance is only going to improve 200mm F2.8 telephoto 300mm F2.8 telephoto An APO 2X teleconverter Fingers crossed Leica will realize that the M is now a very versatile tool that can attract a bigger and wider customer base Also in body stabilization and maybe license Techart to make an auto focus adapter for those who would like auto-focus For the purist they don't have to buy any of these new lenses or the auto focus adapter Except that it did not - that was the M (typ 240) with the EVF2. The only thing that the M10 adds to this part of the game is an improved EVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted June 27, 2017 Share #31 Posted June 27, 2017 Thanks Jaap. The add on EVF for the M10 is fine, better than that on the M240 but still not totally perfect. It is, however, good enough for my occasional use. The EVF on the SL is excellent, but my main issue there is size, yes you can use it with M lenses, but its native lenses are huge. The EVFs on the Fuji X cameras are very good, certainly good enough for use with my not so good eyesight. William Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted June 27, 2017 Author Share #32 Posted June 27, 2017 Yes, William,but note that the OP enthuses about the use of the M10 as an EVF camera. He does not even mention the rangefinder part in his post. Hi Jaapv, Perhaps I did not articulate the issue clearly. The M10 is clearly understood to be a Rangefinder which s a pleasure to use with wide angle to standard prime lenses (for me anyway) I tried to convey that the rather Useable add on EVF, Great live view resolution and the higher ISO capabilities of the M10 frees it from the previous limitations of Rangefinders i.e Frameline issues - zoom lenses can now be used Parallax errors - macro lenses can now be used without cumbersome add ons Viewfinder blockage - telephoto and wider range zoom lenses can be used Higher ISO - zooms and telephotos can be made to F4 maximum apertures to reduce weight of the telephoto and zoom lenses Therefore new genres of photography are now possible with the M10. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 27, 2017 Share #33 Posted June 27, 2017 Indeed, William, I would say that the virtue of the M10 is the return to the roots of rangefinder photography by emphasizing and improving the aspects that are indeed the core of the M series since the M3. The EVF is a nice add-on, but not enough to make it more versatile than the M240. As you know, the loss of the Video facility, simply implemented as it was would make it a downgrade for my use. Should I want a pure rangefinder camera, the M10 is the winner hands down, but then, I prefer using my trusty M6 classic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted June 27, 2017 Author Share #34 Posted June 27, 2017 Except that it did not - that was the M (typ 240) with the EVF2. The only thing that the M10 adds to this part of the game is an improved EVF. You are right. The EVF appeared "first" with the 240 but I tried it and found it rather unseable (maybe because my eyesight is not that good) so to me it was more a gimmick that a workable add on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 27, 2017 Share #35 Posted June 27, 2017 Hi Jaapv, Perhaps I did not articulate the issue clearly. The M10 is clearly understood to be a Rangefinder which s a pleasure to use with wide angle to standard prime lenses (for me anyway) I tried to convey that the rather Useable add on EVF, Great live view resolution and the higher ISO capabilities of the M10 frees it from the previous limitations of Rangefinders i.e Frameline issues - zoom lenses can now be used Parallax errors - macro lenses can now be used without cumbersome add ons Viewfinder blockage - telephoto and wider range zoom lenses can be used Higher ISO - zooms and telephotos can be made to F4 maximum apertures to reduce weight of the telephoto and zoom lenses Therefore new genres of photography are now possible with the M10. As they were before the M10 arrived - very similar to the M10 in the M240, quite doable with any M camera before that. If you look through the forum you will find a large number of my tele-wildlife images taken with M8, M9, MM1, etc I never had a problem using long lenses on any Leica M camera, the first wildlife Safari I made was in 1988 - using a Telyt-V-400 on the M4. So my game hasn't changed at all. Well actually, it has, as I find that since the arrival of the new 20 MP MFT sensors and Leica's DG lenses the game has changed dramatically - outside the M system. You might want to have a look at a little article I wrote some time ago on the subject: https://the.me/henri-in-africa-the-leica-monochrom-as-a-travel-camera/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david strachan Posted June 27, 2017 Share #36 Posted June 27, 2017 The gamechanger was the M240 series, with its add on viewfinder and liveview. The M10 was refinement, but not a gamechanger. The addon viewfinder allowed other lenses to be used without rangefinder coupling. Especially macro and telephoto. I think you have missed the point Ozy. Cheers... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozytripper Posted June 27, 2017 Author Share #37 Posted June 27, 2017 Thanks Jaap. The add on EVF for the M10 is fine, better than that on the M240 but still not totally perfect. It is, however, good enough for my occasional use. The EVF on the SL is excellent, but my main issue there is size, yes you can use it with M lenses, but its native lenses are huge. The EVFs on the Fuji X cameras are very good, certainly good enough for use with my not so good eyesight. William agree 100% In terms of size and weight the SL freaked me out the 28-90mm freaked me out more and the 50mm F1.4 totally freaked me out at 1kg Canon 50mm F1.2 is 595g Canon 85mm F1.2 is 971g Leica M 50mm F1.4 Black chrome is 460g I just ditched my Canon system for its weight so there is no way I am going to acquire a heavier SL system Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 27, 2017 Share #38 Posted June 27, 2017 You are right. The EVF appeared "first" with the 240 but I tried it and found it rather unseable (maybe because my eyesight is not that good) so to me it was more a gimmick that a workable add on. It works perfectly for me, accepting its limitations. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted June 27, 2017 Share #39 Posted June 27, 2017 It is not only EVFs which appeared first with the M240. It is the whole live view capabilities including video. By abandoning video, the M10 did not follow this trend i'm afraid so game charger it cannot be from this standpoint. As for the Techart adapter, it would be useless on M bodies as it needs the shorter registration distance of Sony cameras to work. What Ozytripper is describing here is a Sony body with a red dot and a rangefinder . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 27, 2017 Share #40 Posted June 27, 2017 I would love to see a 75mm to 180mm f/5.6 zoom for the Leica M, and it could be small for such zooms (but not compared to rangefinder lenses). I think it would make an intriguing set with the WATE and MATE. I suppose we could call it the TATE. I don't think we will get it, however... I'd even like more a 180 prime... even a 4,5 5,6 or so... but is as you say : "don't think we will get it"... how many would they sell ? Teles and even more zooms are NOT the field of M, simply... and there are LOT of alternatives for the few people who whish to "go long" with their M (I bought 2 months ago a fine ApoTelyt R 180 3,4... at a price that, probably, would 1/3 or 1/4 of a lens that Leica COULD MAYBE BUT UNEVEN announce for M...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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