AF Drive Problems Leica S Lenses: Official Statement by Leica

[Photon42]

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Quoting myself - the 120 is en route to Wetzlar now - AF gear issue. it drives me nuts that they cannot fix it in the country. Eight weeks. Again.

 

 

Leica shop ZH just told me the lens is back from Wetzlar. That was really quick this time! Hope they did not forget to actually repair it ...

[hoppyman]

Jaap The customer care manager has been contacted by Leica Camera Australia on my behalf asking for clarification on the warranty policy post repair. I wish I could find the interview with Stefan Daniel where I understood he said that post repair the complete item is guaranteed. It may have been at a Photokina interview with one of the US dealers I think?

Today I was advised that my 70CS is back in Australia from repair. I don't have the final cost as yet.The central shutter was replaced this time. I received an answer quoted from the head of Customer Care that the warranty for the previous no charge repair of the defective AF system does not cover any other subsequent faults, only the AF motor. That is contrary to what I understood previously (based on an interview statement by Stefan Daniel) which is that a repaired item, having been checked and adjusted during a repair then has a new period of warranty. That's a disappointment and a large cost. Also mentioned was that the repair warranty is for 2 years, but only for what was repaired. For what its worth that is twice as long as I thought the repair warranty was, but will only help me if the Central shutter fails again.

 

Thank heavens for insurance anyway. I don't feel like I can invest more in this system currently. It breaks too much for what is meant to be their rugged premium professional range. I have been fortunate in any event to have exemplary support from Leica Camera Australia and have had uninterrupted system availability due to them. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by hoppyman

[Milan_S]

A piano, a cocktail and a pretty lady.

Leica S007 Leica Summarit-S 70mm F2.5 Asph. CS

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Edited April 30, 2018 by Milan_S

[Jeff S]

A piano, a cocktail and a pretty lady.

Leica S007 Leica Summarit-S 70mm F2.5 Asph. CS

This may better address certain drive problems unrelated to AF.... but I like it.

 

Jeff

[GMB]

I have been absent from the forum for quite some time. I have 7 S lenses, all bought new.  I have not used the system much lately, mainly because I did not do much photography and, when I did, I used the M because of weight.

 

Anyway, in May, the 100/2 autofocus failed.  I contacted Leica, they sent UPS to pick it up, and a week later I got a quote for the repair. Cost was EUR 711.  I called and said that my understanding was EUR 400.  Response:  That was a good-will solution but it no longer applies and we now have to charge full costs.

 

I did not pursue the issue further because the lens was not yet 5 years old.  But I wonder what to do with all my other lenses, none of which showed the autofocus problem and all of which are older than 5 years.  6*700 EUR for preemptive repair to fix a design fault is quite something.

 

Anyway, I will wait whether there is a S3 and what it will look like.

[hoppyman]

Somthing is wrong there or perhaps I have misunderstood your post. The official statement said that if the AF fault occurred within 5 years of purchase it would be fixed for free. There was an option to have the fix done on a lens that has not failed at your own expense.

Could there have been other faults in the lens, not just the manufacturer defect AF fail?

 

My lens failed twice. The AF fail was fixed for free. Some weeks later the central shutter failed. The cost was AUD 1500

[GMB]

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Sorry if I was not clear.  There were no other problems than the AF fail.  However, Leica first thought that the lens was older than 5 years and therefore gave a quote for the repair.  The quote was higher than the EUR 400 previously mentioned.  My understanding was (and is) that the 400 referred to 2 situations:  (i) you send in the lens preemptively (i.e., before the AF failed) or (ii) the AF failed 5 years after the lens was purchased.

 

The person at Leica with whom I spoke clearly said that (i) the 400 EUR offer was a special price and below Leica cost, (ii) the offer is longer valid, and (iii) they would now charge full costs.

 

I did not take the issue any further because, once Leica saw that the lens was less than 5 years old, they repaired the AF for free. However, I would be interested to know what folks paid recently for the AF repair.  BTW, the conversation with Leica took place in June.

[alan.y]

The person at Leica with whom I spoke clearly said that (i) the 400 EUR offer was a special price and below Leica cost

 

This line stands out to me in your dispiriting report. So the cost to Leica (by its own calculations) of repairing the AF motor is something between EUR 400 and 700. Wow.

[mgrayson3]

I paid a LOT less...

[hoppyman]

Georg that makes sense that the initial quote was a mistake and Leica did honour their stated policy for fail within five years then.. thanks for clarifying that for the group. If the cost for a preemptive service is the same as for a fail outside of warranty, then I see no reason for me to send my second lens before a possible future failure then..

[ZHNL]

This line stands out to me in your dispiriting report. So the cost to Leica (by its own calculations) of repairing the AF motor is something between EUR 400 and 700. Wow.

I sense there is some policy change on Leica service. After my June iceland trip, (I have and will keep share images from that trip here) I sent my S006 to Leica US for a sensor clean and replace rubber jacket because I was told it can be done in US. Leica NJ sent the units right away to Germany as they sense there might be sensor corrosion. 

 

After two week, I get a bill close to $4k for replacing sensor and CLA with option to trade in a refurbished S007. I state the issue is Leica's quality problem and request free of charge. (I bought the Camera used from Leica Store SOHO 2015. I never wet clean the sensor) However, I was told the policy now is any camera with manufacture date older than 5 years, the sensor replacement will be at owner's expense even this is LEICA QUALITY ISSUE.   

 

My S006 serNO start with 44xxxx, per online serNO is should be around 2014 which is less than 5 years. However, Leica claimed it was manufactured 7 years ago. I replied that I don't want S007, all I want is healthy S006 with problem free sensor, I will pay all the CLA but not sensor which is quality issue etc.. but of course, my request get rejected. 

 

TBH, I don't want make a big deal out of this initially, but it is almost the last straw on the camel back for me with Leica system. I have all kind of problems with Leica before, however, usually they make it right or decent enough for me. So l stay positive and loyal to them.  

 

I was left only three options that: pay the repair which cost close to buy a new S006,  trash the camera or trade it for S007 (they claimed there is no refurbished 007 anymore, so they will change the offer for a brand new one) at reasonable price. My first reply with angry that just sent the camera back and I will sold all my S lenses out and only use 70mm or whatever left as simple system to shoot it until it is totally die. That will be my final relationship with Leica.  

 

After carefully thinking, it makes more financial sense to take the offer for a brand new S007.  I might still choose to sell it and quite the system. My heart was broken with Leica TBH. Obviously the offer was stem from overstocked 007 with S3 is in the horizon. 

 

BTW, the whole process is still long and slow. you only get a reply with multiple emails and days delay.  This start with one and half month ago, I still don't know when I can process further after I agree on S007 trade offer. Thanks god I am not a pro, otherwise I might lose my job and bring nothing to feed my family if I am a S shooter.  

 

No matter what they do in the future, this company is no longer the same. Their QA is a mess and their culture is no longer meet my philosophy on this journey.  

Edited September 5, 2018 by ZHNL

[Jeff S]

Depressing tale. I thought NJ was the only messed up situation. Hard to believe that the top execs would not step in after hearing such a terrible story... I assume you shared it. Kudos for still sharing nice pics.

 

Jeff

[alan.y]

I sense there is some policy change on Leica service. After my June iceland trip, (I have and will keep share images from that trip here) I sent my S006 to Leica US for a sensor clean and replace rubber jacket because I was told it can be done in US. Leica NJ sent the units right away to Germany as they sense there might be sensor corrosion. 

 

After two week, I get a bill close to $4k for replacing sensor and CLA with option to trade in a refurbished S007. I state the issue is Leica's quality problem and request free of charge. (I bought the Camera used from Leica Store SOHO 2015. I never wet clean the sensor) However, I was told the policy now is any camera with manufacture date older than 5 years, the sensor replacement will be at owner's expense even this is LEICA QUALITY ISSUE.   

 

My S006 serNO start with 44xxxx, per online serNO is should be around 2014 which is less than 5 years. However, Leica claimed it was manufactured 7 years ago. I replied that I don't want S007, all I want is healthy S006 with problem free sensor, I will pay all the CLA but not sensor which is quality issue etc.. but of course, my request get rejected. 

 

TBH, I don't want make a big deal out of this initially, but it is almost the last straw on the camel back for me with Leica system. I have all kind of problems with Leica before, however, usually they make it right or decent enough for me. So l stay positive and loyal to them.  

 

I was left only three options that: pay the repair which cost close to buy a new S006,  trash the camera or trade it for S007 (they claimed there is no refurbished 007 anymore, so they will change the offer for a brand new one) at reasonable price. My first reply with angry that just sent the camera back and I will sold all my S lenses out and only use 70mm or whatever left as simple system to shoot it until it is totally die. That will be my final relationship with Leica.  

 

After carefully thinking, it makes more financial sense to take the offer for a brand new S007.  I might still choose to sell it and quite the system. My heart was broken with Leica TBH. Obviously the offer was stem from overstocked 007 with S3 is in the horizon. 

 

BTW, the whole process is still long and slow. you only get a reply with multiple emails and days delay.  This start with one and half month ago, I still don't know when I can process further after I agree on S007 trade offer. Thanks god I am not a pro, otherwise I might lose my job and bring nothing to feed my family if I am a S shooter.  

 

No matter what they do in the future, this company is no longer the same. Their QA is a mess and their culture is no longer meet my philosophy on this journey.  

 

Sorry to read this.

 

I myself have the experience of sending in an otherwise (apparently to me) normally functional body to get the detached rubber armor replaced, only to be told by Leica about a host of problems and miscellaneous misalignments that required over $1000 to fix. Needless to say I couldn't opt out of them, or get a more detailed explanation. The second S 007 body I sent in (which did have problems I knew about, in addition to the detached armor) was also found to have other issues unknown to me.

 

I sent a lens in for cleaning at the same time. Leica wanted to charge EUR 1700 or so, more than what I paid for it. I opted out and continue to use the lens in its current state. The high retail prices of the whole system, out of touch with reality as many have suggested, apparently justify exorbitant repair costs. This and the shoddy QA make for a lethal combination. More than once I've wondered if the auto-detaching rubber armor (all three of my S bodies have suffered this within a year of ownership) is a ploy to recall cameras and charge for their repairs. I have other (less dramatic than ZHNL's) stories also, although I do have positive experiences with loaner cameras and lenses.

 

But overall the experience of being an S owner increasingly feels like being held hostage and milked.

 

EUR 700 for the AF repair--that is, a EUR 300 penalty for the cheapskate who takes the chance of waiting for the lens to fail--is frankly just mean.

Edited September 5, 2018 by alan.y

[Photon42]

Lots of complaints here. I can perfectly understand the frustration in buying expensive gear (even 2nd hand it is still not bon marché). Real design/production errors should be taken care of for a long period, especially when the signals do surface very differently depending on usage and location / humidity. I would think this suits a premium product. The other problem I see with grace periods is, that the sales point in time and the manufacture point in time do sometimes greatly differ and on top of that aren't transparent for the user. Nowadays it should be less of an issue as one should simply not buy lenses without AF fix applied (I would think all Leica dealer only sell fixed lenses).

 

I just want to add (to write something positive   ), that Leica did repair two S lenses I bought second hand free of charge as they probably did fall within the five year grace period. I had various M bodies fixed by Leica for free with almost zero discussions at all. The first time I see a repair invoice is actually now, as the motherboard of my TL 23 mm was smoked. 200 odd Swiss Francs for replacement. Sounds fair to me.

 

For me product mojo (lacking a better word) and service is what sets (or should set) this company apart. Both are vital in my eyes.

[GMB]

Very depressing for someone who invested in S lenses (wrongly and perhaps naively) believing they would keep value like M lenses.  I purchased almost all of them new with only a small discount and if I sell I will take a big hit.  I was hoping to use the system more often in the coming years because we are planning to make several long term trips in an off road camper so that weight and bulk of the system is not the issue.  But not so sure any more.

 

I am wondering what is the cause of the changed attitude. Perhaps Leica's (not so new new owners) want to increase revenue by all means. But I think reducing service is the wrong way.  If Leica becomes like any other tech company treating customers like sh**, then they will very quickly lose a significant amount of premium customers.

 

Also, I personally would be prepared to go all the way up at the company, both directly or through my 2 dealers. There is no point in discussing with the customer care person who has to follow whatever the company policy is.

[ZHNL]

Lots of complaints here. I can perfectly understand the frustration in buying expensive gear (even 2nd hand it is still not bon marché). Real design/production errors should be taken care of for a long period, especially when the signals do surface very differently depending on usage and location / humidity. I would think this suits a premium product. The other problem I see with grace periods is, that the sales point in time and the manufacture point in time do sometimes greatly differ and on top of that aren't transparent for the user. Nowadays it should be less of an issue as one should simply not buy lenses without AF fix applied (I would think all Leica dealer only sell fixed lenses).

 

I just want to add (to write something positive   ), that Leica did repair two S lenses I bought second hand free of charge as they probably did fall within the five year grace period. I had various M bodies fixed by Leica for free with almost zero discussions at all. The first time I see a repair invoice is actually now, as the motherboard of my TL 23 mm was smoked. 200 odd Swiss Francs for replacement. Sounds fair to me.

 

For me product mojo (lacking a better word) and service is what sets (or should set) this company apart. Both are vital in my eyes.

It is a decision of our board and product management that the sensor replacements for cameras older than 5 years have to be charged.

We offer an upgrade with a very attractive price to a refurbished Leica S 007. At the moment we don’t have any refurbished models at stock and the customer will get a new Leica S 007 from our production.

 

Should you decide to take the offer, your S006 becomes the property of Leica.

 

Here is the last reply I got from Leica. I will leave it to you to judge. All I see are cold and arrogant, not even a basic courtesy. Is that a culture difference? Am I expect too much?

 

It was nice you mention humidity. Here in California, it is nice and dry whole year. The last rain was happened maybe five month ago. If two week of Iceland trip made the sensor corrosion happen, we better don’t take the camera to anywhere.

 

I got what you said about expensive service for a premium product. It is a very reasonable expectation at the time I bought my S. (but not apply to this case at all) I of course know that from driving German cars for many years. Any problems happen on my car out of warranty means high bill.

 

However, this is totally different case we are talking here. For both AF motor and sensor corrosion, these are Leica’s quality issue, period. My Audi headlamp get replaced free after warranty expired because manufacture recall.

 

Leica’s policy right now is pretty much dumping customers, trashed S after sale market value. They don’t cherish their brand reputation; they don’t cherish customer relationship build over the years. This is very short sighted and the damage is long term.

My story is not for complaining but I feel the responsivity to share. I am quite glad I share the story now actually. I admit my response to Leica here is weak actually and my loss is bonded with limit I can handle without affect my normal life.   

 

Think about this logic: Our products have known quality issues; the problems will happen any time start from using the product. In case it happens within 5 years from manufacture date, we will take care of you. After 5 years, It is owner’s responsivity should they decide to fix it.

 

What the ? This deserves a class action. I am willing to join if anyone decides to take the step. This is totally wrong.

Edited September 6, 2018 by ZHNL

[ZHNL]

If Leica becomes like any other tech company treating customers like sh**

Funny you talk about sh** service from other company. I actually only got that from S so far. 

 

After the same trip, I also sent my D850 for full CLA to Nikon LA. From start to get the camera back, it only took 5 days.

Zero charge. detailing all the service has been done on the camera. (adjust sensor, AF module, clean, firmware update, tested meet full spec.)  

[xiaubauu2009]

Funny you talk about sh** service from other company. I actually only got that from S so far. 

 

After the same trip, I also sent my D850 for full CLA to Nikon LA. From start to get the camera back, it only took 5 days.

Zero charge. detailing all the service has been done on the camera. (adjust sensor, AF module, clean, firmware update, tested meet full spec.)  

 

 

I have had experience with Fujifilm GFX lens broke on me in 4 months. The AF module broke and the whole focusing part of that 32-64mm lens flop around inside the lens. The first time I notice the problem, I had it send back to Japan where I bought the lens to have it fix. strangely, a week later, I got it back with a technician note from Fujifilm saying  that there's nothing wrong with the lens. The minute I put it on, There's a huge grinding sound and 'snap' feel and the whole mechanism just feel loose inside and the camera just say lens not detected. And when I took the lens off, I can feel that mechanism is now completely floating around inside the lens barrel.

 

As you can imagine, I am rather pissed. So I ask my wife to help me write a sternly worded complain letter back to Fujifilm demanding explanation and compensation without the profuse amount of profanities I was using when I notate it to her (She's Japanese). Sent back to them... and 1month later, it came back with work list of a new AF module. and nothing else... The lens work since, still sharp as ever, but the process told me that nobody is perfect, it is how they handle the problem that makes the difference.

 

In Leica S terms, their failure rate is high, make it a rather fragile eco system and I think after handling so many problem, one can only take so much crap keep dumping on them, and they might just say ' Fxxx it'.

[albireo_double]

Not sure where you are going with your comment in the last para but (i) it is true that Leica have been good with their service of the S-system (unlike the M system where the service times have been much longer) and (ii) I would expect nothing else from them, given the premium they charge over the Fuji system. Having said that, my Fuji 63mm lens also failed. I visited Fuji's European online service website, filled in the form, printed the sticker and sent the lens to them by post. It was back repaired in about 10 days. Similar performance to Leica, in my experience. In short, I can't complain about either company's service performance; I just wish they'd designed these expensive cameras and lenses with more of a "reliability in the field" mindset and didn't skimp on stupidities like plastic gears.

Edited September 7, 2018 by albireo_double

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[alan.y]

Plastic gears that cost EUR 700 to change.