AF Drive Problems Leica S Lenses: Official Statement by Leica

[alan.y]

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5 hours ago, helged said:

+1. I have no problems with the EURO300 cost. You (obviously) get a new af motor, but also lens adjustments/calibration. Something that needs to be done now and then. 

 

5 hours ago, BernardC said:

I can't agree that a €298 fee for servicing a 5 year old lens is a hidden cost. I assume that any used lens will require service, even if described as "MINT!"

The cost is very competitive for factory-level service, even if it didn't include a new AF motor. My local lens-repair place would certainly charge at least as much. Actually, he would tell me stop wasting his time and send the lens to Leica! He's great, but part of that quality is being honest with customers.

You may assume a lens can break any moment from a design flaw. I don't.

And it's not just the focus replacement cost itself, but the time and headache (as I said in the second half of my sentence that was left out of the quotation). I also meant the hundreds and thousands Leica charges for miscellaneous adjustments to the S body, which I myself have experienced twice.

Ultimately, whatever you want to call them and whether you personally have a problem with them, the point is it's important for a potential buyer to be made aware of these costs and it's irresponsible to dismiss such reminders as "moaning."

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2020 by alan.y

[Photon42]

I agree that the perfect lens should actually live forever, but that is not reality. I think Leica gives us a five year time window from purchase date, in which the lens is repaired for free. It does not have to be the original customer who claims the warranty repair. Repairing all at their cost was probably over the top, financially. Could it have been 10 years - maybe. I personally think it is reasonably fair. The AF repair cost in relation to the initial investment is marginal, financially. Insurances actually pay for these things, too. Is it still annoying to send the lens to Wetzlar? Yes. Would it have been better, it never happened? Yes. Can Leica's repair process and communication improve? Probably. Do I still like the S more than any other medium format camera out there? Yes. Can I live with the AF issue and their handling of it? Yes.

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[alan.y]

6 hours ago, Photon42 said:

I agree that the perfect lens should actually live forever, but that is not reality. I think Leica gives us a five year time window from purchase date, in which the lens is repaired for free. It does not have to be the original customer who claims the warranty repair. Repairing all at their cost was probably over the top, financially. Could it have been 10 years - maybe. I personally think it is reasonably fair. The AF repair cost in relation to the initial investment is marginal, financially. Insurances actually pay for these things, too. Is it still annoying to send the lens to Wetzlar? Yes. Would it have been better, it never happened? Yes. Can Leica's repair process and communication improve? Probably. Do I still like the S more than any other medium format camera out there? Yes. Can I live with the AF issue and their handling of it? Yes.

I don't think anyone believes a lens should last forever. I happen to find 300 euros for the preemptive repair acceptable--but simultaneously also that the real cost of S ownership is often higher and that any one hoping to come into the S ecology "on the cheap" (Sarnian being the latest user with this attitude) should take it all into account. It does nobody any good to shut down the truth with xenophobic antipathy, unfair quotations, or imaginative soliloquies.

The European users here seem perpetually unable to accept that their experiences are not normative for the rest of the world, regardless of at least dozens of rounds of the same discussion. I've used Leica services from the US, Hong Kong, China, and Germany. In Berlin all I had to do was bike to the Leica Store and drop off the stuff. Some nine days later I had it back. Fantastic indeed. Outside Europe, if you send something in yourself, you pay for shipping and insurance, and you deal with taxes and export/import paperwork, which entails more waiting and irritation and sometimes depreciation. If you send something in through an agent, you wait (in some cases much longer than "two weeks"), and often you still pay extra. In China it's not worth the effort at all, and more economical to fly yourself with the gear to Hong Kong or directly to Germany.

Second, used S lenses are often sold for under USD 2k, the 70 often for USD $1500. In such cases, 300 euros isn't exactly insignificant. The more important point is Leica's mythological pricing is, well, just that. Since repairs are priced accordingly, their prices are also mythologically high, except you have to pay them with real money. So you end up being asked for pay $6.5k to "upgrade" to a 007 from a corroded S body that Leica refuses to fix, or (in my case) $1.5k-$2k to rectify (non-AF and not noticeable in use) problems with lenses that cost less than that to begin with when their AF motors do break. Needless to say you can't ask Leica to explain why, or repair only the AF motors but not the rest.

Ditto for the auto-peeling S bodies. Again, to people who want to score one on the cheap: Leica will nail you for it eventually because of the aforesaid.

Edited January 18, 2020 by alan.y

[Sarnian]

12 minutes ago, alan.y said:

any one hoping to come into the S ecology "on the cheap" (Sarnian being the latest user with this attitude) should take it all into account.

I’m such a cheapskate that I’m even using Pentax 645 lenses on my sensor-corroded 006! 🥳 👍🏼

[ZHNL]

1 hour ago, alan.y said:

I don't think anyone believes a lens should last forever. I happen to find 300 euros for the preemptive repair acceptable--but simultaneously also that the real cost of S ownership is often higher and that any one hoping to come into the S ecology "on the cheap" (Sarnian being the latest user with this attitude) should take it all into account. It does nobody any good to shut down the truth with xenophobic antipathy, unfair quotations, or imaginative soliloquies.

The European users here seem perpetually unable to accept that their experiences are not normative for the rest of the world, regardless of at least dozens of rounds of the same discussion. I've used Leica services from the US, Hong Kong, China, and Germany. In Berlin all I had to do was bike to the Leica Store and drop off the stuff. Some nine days later I had it back. Fantastic indeed. Outside Europe, if you send something in yourself, you pay for shipping and insurance, and you deal with taxes and export/import paperwork, which entails more waiting and irritation and sometimes depreciation. If you send something in through an agent, you wait (in some cases much longer than "two weeks"), and often you still pay extra. In China it's not worth the effort at all, and more economical to fly yourself with the gear to Hong Kong or directly to Germany.

Second, used S lenses are often sold for under USD 2k, the 70 often for USD $1500. In such cases, 300 euros isn't exactly insignificant. The more important point is Leica's mythological pricing is, well, just that. Since repairs are priced accordingly, their prices are also mythologically high, except you have to pay them with real money. So you end up being asked for pay $6.5k to "upgrade" to a 007 from a corroded S body that Leica refuses to fix, or (in my case) $1.5k-$2k to rectify (non-AF and not noticeable in use) problems with lenses that cost less than that to begin with when their AF motors do break. Needless to say you can't ask Leica to explain why, or repair only the AF motors but not the rest.

Ditto for the auto-peeling S bodies. Again, to people who want to score one on the cheap: Leica will nail you for it eventually because of the aforesaid.

I actually agree with you. Maybe there is no more original owners for S system left. I’d like to know how they feel about all these depreciation. 
 

I no longer criticize them as this was really pretty bad for everyone including Leica themselves, but now it seems die down and most start to enjoy their system again without worry this anymore. 

The love of S system tend to relieve my angry. Logically, it is valid that for many, only because this problem, they were able to have such a wonderful system they love at a price they can afford. Me included. I won’t pay these at 20k retail body and 8k a piece lens. 

[Stuart Richardson]

8 hours ago, ZHNL said:

I actually agree with you. Maybe there is no more original owners for S system left. I’d like to know how they feel about all these depreciation.

I find it incredibly frustrating, for one. As for Sarnian buying a 30-90 for a fraction of the new price, I paid full price for it and felt very cheated that it was largely unusable for my work. Figuring that out unfortunately took long enough that I was no longer able to return the lens. So I paid for a 10,000 dollar lens I could not use, and if I wanted to turn around and sell it I would immediately lose several thousand dollars, as by then the word was out that it was not great. Similarly, when I received my S006 it had a problem fairly quickly, so I kept my S2 around as a backup. By the time I was about to sell it, Leica Store Miami started selling them for under 5000 dollars to clear stock, and the camera that just weeks before had been worth 8000 dollars was now worth 3500-4000. I believe I paid 22,000 dollars for it three or four years before. I have been using these cameras and lenses for work for years, and one of the reasons I put in the money I did was because I felt that Leica would continuously update the system as a pro system, and incentivize it like other pro systems from Hasselblad, Phase One and so on. There was a lot of big talk in the early days of the system about all the services that pros would receive. In the end they turned out to be quite limited, and basically non-existent if you do not live in a large country with a good Leica network. For me here in Iceland, it was nothing. I remember the promise of overnight loaners, no downtime, cameras to test etc. The first time I asked to try something, I was told that I would have to pay 5000 dollars deposit in taxes and fill out massive paper work in order to receive a loaner camera for repair. Then it was on me to submit the paperwork to be paid back...

Anyway, the camera is great, the lenses are great, but the whole service/support/logistics/updates and maintenance of the system leave a lot to be desired...at least from my perspective. I still look forward to the S3 to eke out another 5-10 years out of the system. Hopefully they will have good trade-ins or promotions for existing customers. If they reward loyalty there, it will go a long way towards easing the pain of depreciation.

Edited January 19, 2020 by Stuart Richardson

[LeicaR10]

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Interesting comments on experience with the S system.  As a pro, I have owned the S2, S006 and now the S007 along with a number of S lenses.  I realize a number of photographers are frustrated with Leica service and reliability for such things as the AF motor debacle.  But for many pros that I know who use the system, most had very few issues and service was very good.  I think photographers should think about the market the system was originally designed; pro photographers who need a MF camera and lenses that resolve for genres of fashion, portrait and in some cases landscape photographs.  These same pro photographers either lease or rent the high-end cameras due to depreciation and cost.  Seldom do pros purchase expensive camera systems.  The professional photographers write off the equipment on business taxes; again because like all cameras...they depreciate.  Hasselblad, Phase One, Fuji and all the others depreciate simple as that...just like automobiles when you drive them off the auto dealer lot.  One of the few things that holds their value fairly well are Leica M lenses.  People getting into any camera system of any kind should fully expect the value of the equipment to depreciate and some brands go down in value faster than others for various reasons...just like automobiles.   I know Leica has worked hard the last couple years on customer service with the S system and in many cases, users are more happy.  I know many photographers expect for the money they spend, the reliability of the camera and lenses should be very high....but like any complicated device, it can and does break...just like automobiles.  The good news at least for me and IMO,  Leica cameras and lenses such as the SL, have substantially improved in reliability over the years...I just wish I could say the same about my DeLorean.  r/ Mark

[Sarnian]

8 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As for Sarnian buying a 30-90 for a fraction of the new price, I paid full price for it and felt very cheated that it was largely unusable for my work. Figuring that out unfortunately took long enough that I was no longer able to return the lens. 

Did you send it to Leica for adjustment? On my invoice it has "adjust optics centering device". I haven't received it back yet so I don't know if it has done the trick. I'll certainly report back, though.

But, yes, as it stood it definitely wasn't an £8,700 lens so I'm glad that I didn't buy it new (not that I could have afforded to!). My Pentax D-FA 28-45mm was SO much better in every respect - except for its size!!

[Stuart Richardson]

Mark, you have mentioned depreciation and pros before. I do not think it works the same everywhere. For example, it is not quite so simple here. Additionally, pros in Iceland do not generally rent gear at all. No one here rents high end gear, so the pros are forced to buy their setups....including lighting and cameras. There is some access to rentals, but it is primarily basic canon gear and so on. Same thing for support...it is well-nigh non-existent locally, even though there is one person who sells Leica. He is not an official dealer, and everything has to go through Denmark, so if you deal with him, (which is a bad idea anyway), everything has to be first shipped to Denmark, then to Germany, then back to Denmark, then here. Loaners and replacements are unheard of. Anyway, people who live in larger countries with more access to a strong local distributorship often have a very different experience in the system than those who live in small markets. 

 

Sarnian -- I wound up bringing the camera in person to Leica, and they adjusted it to the best of their ability. I was given the opportunity to test it on the grounds of Leica, and in the limited test shots I was able to do there, it seemed better. I was also wooed by the hospitality they offered me while I was there. They were very kind to me. So I took the lens back. When I returned to Iceland and started making work again, I realized that while better, it was still not good enough for me to work with. At the time I was doing a series which were printed 100x150cm, and the faults in the lens were clearly visible at that size in comparison to the potential I got out of the prime lenses. In studying the MTF, the problem with the edges is quite clear. So now I try to pay more attention to the charts when I buy, rather than the words. The charts seem to be more truthful than the marketers. So while I used the lens occasionally, I put it aside and wrote it off as an expensive lesson. Since then, I have been able to use it as a versatile and useful lens for video on the S1.

[ynp]

Today my S180 made a familiar noise and the AF died. I am scared to mount my S120 and the Zoom om my S3.
Fortunately, I have a set of Contax 645 lenses to supplement the S lenses and my S100 was fixed by Leica two years ago. 

My upgrade to the S3 is hardly painless. The borders of Russia are closed because of Covid-19 and I cannot just send my lenses to Germany. 
 

yevgeny.  

[helged]

2 hours ago, ynp said:

Today my S180 made a familiar noise and the AF died. I am scared to mount my S120 and the Zoom om my S3.
Fortunately, I have a set of Contax 645 lenses to supplement the S lenses and my S100 was fixed by Leica two years ago. 

My upgrade to the S3 is hardly painless. The borders of Russia are closed because of Covid-19 and I cannot just send my lenses to Germany. 
 

yevgeny.  

Sorry to hear about the S180. Leica will fix it, but that requires sending the lens to Germany. I played with the S3 for about one month during the test phase, and all of my lenses 'survived' the S3, S180 included. 

[John McMaster]

Many people say that it is to do with later cameras, I had several AF motor failures on my S2-P....

john

[ynp]

5 minutes ago, John McMaster said:

Many people say that it is to do with later cameras, I had several AF motor failures on my S2-P....

john

Some time ago one lens failed on my S2p and the S100 failed when I mounted it to my  SL through the adapter. 
 

Edited August 6, 2020 by ynp

[LeicaR10]

Ynp,   The borders are closed here in Australia as well.  I use both FedEx and UPS to send my gear to either the US or Germany.  (DHL is operating too)  Every country has different rules, but it is worth the effort to ship the lens to Wetzlar.  You might contact Leica Customer Care first and see what they recommend.  Leica CC and repair center are open.  I have the S3 now and have no issues with AF motors on any of my lenses.  Then again, all the AF motors have been replaced.  The S lenses that died on me, 2 died in a Leica Store and one while on a remote shoot. But this was several years ago and occurred using a S007.  As a Leica tech rep once told me, the old AF motor had a design and torque wear issue.  I have never had a AF motor issue since Leica replaced them with the new updated motor.  I suggest you start with Leica CC at Wetzlar first for shipping options via the website.  Hope this helps.  r/ Mark

[ynp]

10 minutes ago, LeicaR10 said:

As a Leica tech rep once told me, the old AF motor had a design and torque wear issue.  I have never had a AF motor issue since Leica replaced them with the new updated motor.  I suggest you start with Leica CC at Wetzlar first for shipping options via the website

Thanks. I will try to get to the Moscow Store first, maybe they will find a solution. My lens was bought secondhand and it’s pretty old. 

BTW I am still shooting my S180 in a manual mode, no problem to focus it with a relatively static subject. The 180mm is one of the easiest lenses to focus manually and I am surprised that some people find it difficult. 

[Jeff S]

40 minutes ago, ynp said:

Thanks. I will try to get to the Moscow Store first, maybe they will find a solution. My lens was bought secondhand and it’s pretty old. 

BTW I am still shooting my S180 in a manual mode, no problem to focus it with a relatively static subject. The 180mm is one of the easiest lenses to focus manually and I am surprised that some people find it difficult. 

If you find a shipping option with reasonable estimated turnaround, you might then try your remaining 2 S lenses on the S3 to determine if more than one warrants attention at the same time. No use being surprised and having to repeat the whole process. Or just bite the bullet and get them all serviced anyway... might get a deal.
 

Jeff

Edited August 6, 2020 by Jeff S

[ynp]

50 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Or just bite the bullet and get them all serviced anyway...

Thank you.Very sound advice. 
 I plan to get my lenses treated anyway. Right now I am ok with my Contax and HC adapters.
Got back my HC 55-110 which I’d had for sale. I am covered. 
 

yevgeny 

[Sarnian]

On 1/19/2020 at 12:28 AM, Stuart Richardson said:

I find it incredibly frustrating, for one. As for Sarnian buying a 30-90 for a fraction of the new price, I paid full price for it and felt very cheated that it was largely unusable for my work. Figuring that out unfortunately took long enough that I was no longer able to return the lens. 

I sent my 30-90mm back to Leica as the lens had terrible corners (all round, not just on one side). I had bought the lens second-hand so it wasn't under any kind of warranty. Below is Leica's invoice for the work they undertook: "EUR 0.00"!

On the bottom of the repair document that you fill out when you send something to Leica you state an amount that you'd be happy for them to proceed with the work without checking with you first. I put down EUR 300. I therefore think it's pretty good and honest of Leica not to just take me for the EUR 300. I know that Phase One charge you for just looking at an item that's sent back to them. Oh, Leica also gives you free return postage whereas Phase One charge a hefty sum for sending things back from Denmark. 

I haven't received the lens back yet but I'm hoping that it will be the lens that I always hoped it would be.

Labour costs 0,00

receiving inspection
adjust optics
adjustment of all parts
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Tax 0.00 0.00 0.00
Final amount in EUR 0.00

[Stuart Richardson]

I hope they can help. I went with mine in person (I was in Germany already), and they treated me very kindly. They did the adjustment work for free while I waited. The lens I received back was better, but still not perfect. Looking that the MTF, I am confident that the issue is more inherent in the design than in the quality of construction. This was early days, however. Perhaps they have cracked it. If so, please let me know, as I may return it to them again.

Edited August 13, 2020 by Stuart Richardson

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[Sarnian]

38 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

This was early days, however. Perhaps they have cracked it. If so, please let me know, as I may return it to them again.

Will do, Stuart.