Help! No one can fix my Leica M6 TTL light meter (not even Leica)

[Peter_308]

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Adan, thanks so much for the comprehensive explanation. This gives me hope that there is a “pot” lurking in my TTL somewhere than can be adjusted. If I can get this progressed I’ll update the thread.

[Leicademon]

Note for those in the market for a used metered M... I sold my M6TTL  a few years ago after Sherry Krauter explained to me the circuit board issue. Sherry warned that their circuit boards are starting to fail all over the world with absolutely no replacements available. I sold my TTL in good working order (I advised the buyer of the possible risk, which he was prepared to take). Sherry said the M6 Classic was not affected in the same way and advised that an M6 with serial number 1740000 to 2000000 was a safe bet... That or an M5 with serial number above 1340000. The M5 concern was that earlier models had a shutter drum which was likely to break and a replacement was virtually impossible to find. This is something Sherry has been banging on about for years, although many other experienced technicians do not concur and maintain that it's not that big a deal. Many of the earlier models had their shutter drums replaced by Leica as a routine practice during service. Further, as the camera Is almost 50 years old now, I imagine the problem would have occurred already if it was ever going to. However, it's worth considering if you are thinking about an M5 and have the choice of late or early models. Note also that one disadvantage of a 2 lug version is you can't attach a wrist strap. In the end I got such a great deal on an early model that I took a chance... so far it's working perfectly... knock on wood.
A good M5 is still quite underrated. I wouldn't say it's "undervalued" but  it's excellent value compared to M6's which are totally over-priced these days.  And it's a joy to use.

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Edited February 2, 2021 by Leicademon
typo

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[plasticman]

57 minutes ago, Leicademon said:

Note for those in the market for a used metered M... I sold my M6TTL  a few years ago after Sherry Krauter explained to me the circuit board issue. Sherry warned that their circuit boards are starting to fail all over the world with absolutely no replacements available.

Back in the middle of 2019 @tri made the excellent suggestion that anyone who's experienced this problem should post here, but as far as I can tell, there are no other reports of personal experience of this problem from members here. When I googled I could only find a couple (possibly three) other people who personally had a failed TTL circuit board  (one of them had dropped their camera in a river) but it nevertheless seemed to be "common knowledge" that it was a widespread problem.

To be honest, I don't really care about the meter in my M6TTL - I even decided to sell it and get a new M-A a couple years ago but had no takers at the time (thank god) - but I'm intrigued by this problem that's supposedly so widespread, but hardly anyone has experienced it themselves.

edit: I meant to link to tri's post from 1.5 years ago - but forgot:

 

Edited February 2, 2021 by plasticman

[Leicademon]

I'm not sure if it's exactly 'widespread'... The vibe I got from Sherry is that it is starting to happen now and will be a problem in the the future. But given the uncertainty of the future we all now face I think I'd be inclined to just keep taking pictures and having fun with it. If a meter is not a biggie for you, for sure the TTL is a beautiful piece of kit. 
it kind of reminds of the joke about the guy who is diagnosed with a fatal disease and his doctor gives him 6 months to live. In that time he blows all his money on wine, women and 'high' living. In the end he doesn't have enough money to pay his medical bills. So the doctor gives him another 6 months to live.

[Matlock]

29 minutes ago, Leicademon said:

I'm not sure if it's exactly 'widespread'... The vibe I got from Sherry is that it is starting to happen now and will be a problem in the the future. But given the uncertainty of the future we all now face I think I'd be inclined to just keep taking pictures and having fun with it. If a meter is not a biggie for you, for sure the TTL is a beautiful piece of kit. 
it kind of reminds of the joke about the guy who is diagnosed with a fatal disease and his doctor gives him 6 months to live. In that time he blows all his money on wine, women and 'high' living. In the end he doesn't have enough money to pay his medical bills. So the doctor gives him another 6 months to live.

Yes and I think that the M6TTL has, probably, another 20 years to live. The scare stories are rife but the actual instances of failure are tiny.

[wlaidlaw]

My M6TTL 's circuit board failed during a business trip to the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico in 2002 during the rainy season, when it is very hot and humid. Luckily I also had my Digilux 4.3 with me as well. I was told by Leica UK even as fas back as that, that the replacement circuit boards were in short supply. Leica UK said they thought the circuit board problems might be due to residual flux being hygroscopic and on encountering damp atmospheres, then caused corrosion of the tracks or solder joints on the board. I had to wait close to 6 months for a replacement to arrive from Germany. In the meantime, I bought an M7 and then sold the M6TTL as soon as it came back from Milton Keynes. Then the M7 spent most of the next year going backwards and forwards to Milton Keynes, with assorted warranty issues until H.A. Baker (Stuart Bean - ex Leica UK service manager) very kindly took pity on me and arranged a refund on the basis of non-merchantable goods. I bought a Contax G2 Anniversary Kit from them with the proceeds. My more recent M7 has also been far from a paragon of reliability. Hopefully after Alan Starkie repaired it and found multiple problems, either from shoddy assembly or poor past service, it might be a bit better now. My M4 and M4-P, which never go wrong, lead me to believe it might be a better bet to use one of these with either an MR-4 Leicameter or a Voigtlander VC-2 external meter. 

Wilson

[plasticman]

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36 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

My M6TTL 's circuit board failed during a business trip to the US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico in 2002 during the rainy season, when it is very hot and humid.

So now I have 4 examples - 2 of which seem to be water-based 😀

I can't get away from the feeling there's some cognitive bias involved in these stories: people who've sold their M6TTLs tend to feel that they dodged an imminent bullet, whereas current users of M6TTLs seem not to have so many problems, or even give them any thought - maybe in denial.

Not saying that either side is right or wrong - but there's always a strong tendency of the human mind to represent one's own past decisions as the best possible course of action. Rationalizing selling the M6TTL - even when it hasn't manifested any problems - obviously then increases the noise ratio of the internet rumor-mill.

[plasticman]

btw one more thing: it does seem to me that Leica are exceptionally poor at supporting their cameras. Amazing that circuit boards could be running low even when the M6TTL was still being manufactured. No-one at Leica thought it might be wise to order a few hundred extra units?

 

[Matlock]

28 minutes ago, plasticman said:

So now I have 4 examples - 2 of which seem to be water-based 😀

I can't get away from the feeling there's some cognitive bias involved in these stories: people who've sold their M6TTLs tend to feel that they dodged an imminent bullet, whereas current users of M6TTLs seem not to have so many problems, or even give them any thought - maybe in denial.

Not saying that either side is right or wrong - but there's always a strong tendency of the human mind to represent one's own past decisions as the best possible course of action. Rationalizing selling the M6TTL - even when it hasn't manifested any problems - obviously then increases the noise ratio of the internet rumor-mill.

I bought my M6TTL new back in March 2001. It has never given the slightest trouble and I have four friends with similar experience. I did have a problem with my M7 when the shutter dial went slightly out of kilter, this was resolved by Leica who also carried out the update to the DX reader and viewfinder at no extra charge. This in spite of the fact that the camera was second hand when I bought it. I find Leica service to be far better than most.

[PeterMM1]

I have am M6 TTL0.85  and although I haven't used it in quite a while, I'm honestly not concerned about the metering or if it ever breaks. Your M6 will work quite perfectly without it.
Think of your M6TLL as a the closest to an M3 that you can get. Learn to shoot by the sunny 16 rule. It's not that difficult and it will give you so much better of an understanding and connection with your camera. Metering is an estimate of what the camera thinks it should be , your eyes and judgement will be better equipped to make your own choices once you learn how to use sunny 16.

[plasticman]

1 minute ago, Matlock said:

 I find Leica service to be far better than most.

Luckily I've never needed it. I was thinking about the forethought that might have been wise in this case, and also the screen on the M8, the sensor on the M9, and so on. I definitely don't want to say they're worse than other manufacturers - I just don't have enough experience to know. 

As for the M6TTL again - like I said earlier in the thread, I've owned two - both of which have worked perfectly. When I was buying the second one I looked at a lot of examples - all of which were in perfect working order. I have a couple of friends with M6s - I think at least one of them is an M6TTL - and never heard they had any problem. 

[BradS]

4 minutes ago, Matlock said:

.....I find Leica service to be far better than most.

Leica service...and the simple fact that it still exists is what made me consider  buying a Leica after 40 years using other brands. 

[wizard]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Leicademon:

In the end I got such a great deal on an early model that I took a chance... so far it's working perfectly...

Geez, what happened to that lens? It must have spent some time in a tumble dryer ...

[adan]

2 hours ago, plasticman said:

btw one more thing: it does seem to me that Leica are exceptionally poor at supporting their cameras. Amazing that circuit boards could be running low even when the M6TTL was still being manufactured. No-one at Leica thought it might be wise to order a few hundred extra units?

Not that I totally disagree, but one should remember Leica's financial condition before Dr. Kaufmann stepped in to purchase a major interest in the company, fire the CEO, and install his own Swiss turn-around expert (Dr. Josef Spichtig) as CEO in 2005.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/30/technology/facing-a-digital-world.html

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/6200069674/leica-meeting

About that time, Leica Camera GMBH (then a publicly-traded company) had to file a warning statement that they only had remaining operating cash of €10 million, and expected annual losses of €13-15 million. (Or something like that - after 16 years I forget all the gory details).

I imagine that in 2000-2004, the company was penny-pinching any expense that would not result in immediate income. And dumping M6TTLs and other products into the market discounted 10% at Leica Day events ("M6TTL $1995, but today only, $1795!") just to generate sales.

(BTW - it worked with me. I grabbed an M6TTL 0.85x due to the discount.)

Edited February 2, 2021 by adan

[wattsy]

On 1/3/2021 at 11:33 AM, wlaidlaw said:

WH was bought by Dixons in the 1970's and vanished a few years later.

The Bond Street branch was still around as recent as about 2005 or so (albeit existing as a Wallace Heaton liveried branch of Dixons but with fancier stock) because I remember browsing their Leica range in there around that time.

[wlaidlaw]

28 minutes ago, wattsy said:

The Bond Street branch was still around as recent as about 2005 or so (albeit existing as a Wallace Heaton liveried branch of Dixons but with fancier stock) because I remember browsing their Leica range in there around that time.

The city of London WH branch in Leadenhall Street and the other one in Moorgate Tube station, became Dixons branded in the mid 1980's and had vanished completely by the millennium. 

Wilson

 

[M9reno]

If you are worried about the M6TTL circuit board, but otherwise like the camera enough, an option is not to sell, but to buy a second body as a backup or, in the (probably distant) future, as a parts donor.  These are cameras, not lungs or kidneys.

Edited February 7, 2021 by M9reno

[alan c. davis]

I have a Leica M6 ttl 0.58 with a non functioning meter having drowned the camera in a failed river crossing whilst hiking in New Zealand about 10 years ago. The shutter seized up also at the time but was able to get that fixed by a technician. It all works perfectly now except the meter. I just consider it a cut priced MA and expect it to see me out. I either use a hot shoe mounted light meter or a hand held one 'a la' my Nikon S3. It's no biggie.

[wlaidlaw]

2 hours ago, M9reno said:

If you are worried about the M6TTL circuit board, but otherwise like the camera enough, an option is not to sell, but to buy a second body as a backup or, in the (probably distant) future, as a parts donor.  These are cameras, not lungs or kidneys.

That is what I have done with my “well loved” R9. I bought an NOS R8 as a spare and I now have 2 NOS Motor-Winders R8. I also now know what kills the winders. It is failing to rewind immediately on coming to the end of a roll. If the winder has done a part wind-on, the motor remains powered up from the lithium CR123A batteries and overheats, distorting the stator. This happens even if the camera is turned off, as the camera power supply comes from the winder not the other way round. It is also important not to use RCR123A rechargeable batteries either in the Motor-Winder R9 or the Motor-M. These have lower internal resistance and when fully charged can be over 4V. These over-drive the motor, which can cause overheating and/or damage the quite spindly and fragile gear train in the motor or in the camera. The M motor drive spindle in the camera, is only 1.5mm in diameter. 

Wilson

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[newtoleica]

Similar boat with my Olympus OM4ti and 3Ti gear, though a little less ££ in the game. If a circuit board fails, that's it. Just don't worry and enjoy.