jaapv Posted March 3, 2017 Share #341 Posted March 3, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I tend to agree. And I don't think this move will save the SL, if it needs saving, that is. The users they are driving away are those that were wedded to the Rangefinder M and welcomed the enhanced versatility of the system. They are not SL users. Speaking for myself, I am quite excited by the high-end Panasonic MFT system that I bought for my main travel use. The M system is now the use-at-home-on-special-occasions system - which I feel that Leica intends it to be. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 3, 2017 Posted March 3, 2017 Hi jaapv, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
JohnnySeven Posted March 3, 2017 Share #342 Posted March 3, 2017 Im an old school Leica user. To me the closer a digital m comes to an m3 in feel and function the better. No video is a good thing. The reason people buy a Leica and not a Nikon or Canon or just use a smartphone is the minimalist pure photographic experience. I use my camera's for my work and I don't need a camera that washes and folds my laundry. I need a camera that takes good still images and does what i make it do without any delay or confusion. All you should worry about when making a picture is composition, exposure and focus. Anything else is foolhardy distraction. Is that harsh? Maybe, but life is much more enjoyable when things are simple. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 3, 2017 Share #343 Posted March 3, 2017 I agree as well (that excluding video is for technical, not marketing reasons). How many sales would have been lost if the M10 had video like the M240 that could have been similarly ignored? Fewer, I suspect, than those that will be lost because of those who actually need/want that functionality - though no one can actually know these figures. And I just don't buy the argument that anyone wanting video would go for the SL: if they are using or considering the M for video in the first place, it has to be for its size and convenience in a single package, and the SL would be no substitute (unless the only other criterion is a red dot). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted March 3, 2017 Share #344 Posted March 3, 2017 Im an old school Leica user. To me the closer a digital m comes to an m3 in feel and function the better. No video is a good thing. The reason people buy a Leica and not a Nikon or Canon or just use a smartphone is the minimalist pure photographic experience. I use my camera's for my work and I don't need a camera that washes and folds my laundry. I need a camera that takes good still images and does what i make it do without any delay or confusion. All you should worry about when making a picture is composition, exposure and focus. Anything else is foolhardy distraction. Is that harsh? Maybe, but life is much more enjoyable when things are simple. Sorry to repeat but it has been said many times before.... how addition of an extra video button, that can be disabled in the menu, distracts from pure photographic experience(?). I don't even understand what is pure photographic experience! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stef63 Posted March 3, 2017 Share #345 Posted March 3, 2017 quesadillasSorry to repeat but it has been said many times before.... how addition of an extra video button, that can be disabled in the menu, distracts from pure photographic experience(?). I don't even understand what is pure photographic experience! Well you said it. Pure photographic experience is... taking photographs. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 3, 2017 Share #346 Posted March 3, 2017 I had read that before. To me "pure" experience doesn't go with remote app, Wifi and GPS. This is why I call that BS and guess that the real reason is that they could not implement video (see comment above on "...working properly, with HDMI...."). When a company can't do something (also time to market) then invent all sorts of reasons to explain that. I honestly think that it all factors in together to the ultimate design decisions. Customers were asking for a smaller simpler camera, more like the analog M's in feel and use. Making the camera smaller causes issues with design moving forward, trying to fit all the video features needed (ports, larger battery, heat management, etc.). The majority of customer feedback indicated most people either didn't care about video or they specifically didn't want it. Thus, it became a simple decision to remove the video and focus the M range on being the best stills photography camera they could make and relegate video to the SL, which is a more robust platform for developing video moving forward. It seems to me to be a logical decision. And it sounds like they knew from the beginning that some subset of customers wouldn't be happy with that decision. I'm sure they don't assume everyone who wants video is going to buy an SL vs. all the other cameras out there. So they knew they would lose some sales, but my guess is they will gain some sales as well. For instance, I have an M9, and never bought an M240 (in part because it had video) but I have an order in to purchase an M10. So it could end up being a wash for them, from a sales perspective. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnySeven Posted March 3, 2017 Share #347 Posted March 3, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) What's a pure photographic experience? To me its making a photograph with my abilities and wits, then being able to look at the image and know that it is the way it is because of how I made it with the tool that i used. This is not possible with a tool that makes most of the decisions for you. Things like auto functions and multi functions make the tool the primary item instead of the content and quality of the image. But that's just me... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 3, 2017 Share #348 Posted March 3, 2017 Sorry to repeat but it has been said many times before.... how addition of an extra video button, that can be disabled in the menu, distracts from pure photographic experience(?). I don't even understand what is pure photographic experience! And it has been answered many times. Go back and read through this thread and the other one on video returning to the M. To pretend that all video adds is an extra button is completely disingenuous. You need a larger battery, room for heat dissipation, mic and monitor ports, etc., which leads to a larger camera. Then people start asking for HDMI and then firmware updates for greater resolution, more frames rates, etc. It's a rabbit hole and before you know it, you have a Sony. This is not what most M photographers want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted March 3, 2017 Share #349 Posted March 3, 2017 And it has been answered many times. Go back and read through this thread and the other one on video returning to the M. To pretend that all video adds is an extra button is completely disingenuous. You need a larger battery, room for heat dissipation, mic and monitor ports, etc., which leads to a larger camera. Then people start asking for HDMI and then firmware updates for greater resolution, more frames rates, etc. It's a rabbit hole and before you know it, you have a Sony. This is not what most M photographers want. Highlight mine...I know all the arguments.... and that totally robs me of any kind of photographic experience.... Seriously, it all is much ado about nothing... referring to the "video button distracts me" talk...at least to me. Let me get my fat M240 out. More volume to hug. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #350 Posted March 4, 2017 What's a pure photographic experience? To me its making a photograph with my abilities and wits, then being able to look at the image and know that it is the way it is because of how I made it with the tool that i used. This is not possible with a tool that makes most of the decisions for you. Things like auto functions and multi functions make the tool the primary item instead of the content and quality of the image. But that's just me... Leica said they wanted a larger market share. Limiting their product to the demands of a miniscule percentage of photographers that wish for a severely austere photographic experience appears to be a strange way to go about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 4, 2017 Share #351 Posted March 4, 2017 Leica said they wanted a larger market share. Limiting their product to the demands of a miniscule percentage of photographers that wish for a severely austere photographic experience appears to be a strange way to go about it. Japp - we're friends, but six (6) people refusing to buy the M10 because it lacks video, out of over 800 - as per the Forum M10 survey - is the "miniscule percentage." That number was six the day this thread began three weeks ago - it is still six. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 4, 2017 Share #352 Posted March 4, 2017 Leica said they wanted a larger market share. Limiting their product to the demands of a miniscule percentage of photographers that wish for a severely austere photographic experience appears to be a strange way to go about it. Yeah, just look at the demand for the M10 and it's obvious they goofed. I mean, except for the long waiting lists at every dealer and all the glowing reviews, who is going to buy a camera designed specifically for photographers? Crazy, right? Seriously, though, look at all the M variants released since the M9. And you don't know what they've got up their sleeve for the next few years. You really can't judge the future of the company based on one model, just because you don't like that they omitted one particular feature (one the majority of M users really don't care that much about, no less). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #353 Posted March 4, 2017 The M10 is selling very well to existing M users and nobody doubts that it will be a commercial success by Leica standards, but will it pull new users in like the M240 did? Just think of the threads in the forum by customers switching from other brands over the last years Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted March 4, 2017 Share #354 Posted March 4, 2017 Japp - we're friends, but six (6) people refusing to buy the M10 because it lacks video, out of over 800 - as per the Forum M10 survey - is the "miniscule percentage." That number was six the day this thread began three weeks ago - it is still six. the miniscule percentage I referred to is the number of Leica M owners in the huge population of Canon, Nikon, Sony etc. owners. That is the market that Leica -by their own words- wants over 1% of. My concern is not whether the camera appeals to Leica M affectionadoes, it most certainly does, but whether it is capable of pulling in new customers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
erl Posted March 4, 2017 Share #355 Posted March 4, 2017 the miniscule percentage I referred to is the number of Leica M owners in the huge population of Canon, Nikon, Sony etc. owners. That is the market that Leica -by their own words- wants over 1% of. My concern is not whether the camera appeals to Leica M affectionadoes, it most certainly does, but whether it is capable of pulling in new customers. With respect Jaap, it is pulling in 'new' customers. eg. Me. I did not buy the M240 with video button because it had video (and all that goes with it). I have ordered and paid in full for the M10 (next week I hope) because it most closely represents my desire in a camera of this style ie. RF. I am confident that I am not alone, in fact I see the queue ahead of me. Maybe I represent the 'new' customer they are are seeking! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 4, 2017 Share #356 Posted March 4, 2017 Leica said they wanted a larger market share. Limiting their product to the demands of a miniscule percentage of photographers that wish for a severely austere photographic experience appears to be a strange way to go about it. Strange but logical if Leica considers that rangefinders cannot gain enough market share anyway. The future of digital Ms is more or less the same as that of film Ms from this viewpoint. Leica are preparing the transition between M-esssucher and M-irrorless cameras. As soon as they launch a compact mirrorless camera with the same EVF as that of the SL, a lot of diehard RF users will fall in love with the new body. No need to invest little fortunes in rangefinders then. Let them die a quiet death while investments are made in the compact SL. Translation in marketing terms: “Das Wesentliche”... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted March 4, 2017 Share #357 Posted March 4, 2017 If most M10 users were Leica M afficianados, we wouldn't need the massive "M10 FAQ" - which mostly seems to be about explaining rangefinders to people who have never used one. Because we noticed a lot of misinformation spreading through other forums, from the interested but underinformed. I mean, "How to hold an M camera" and "Focusing the M10 rangefinder" and "Parallax shift" - what Leica M afficianado, or current user, needs help with those? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted March 4, 2017 Share #358 Posted March 4, 2017 I love how Leica removes one feature that was literally present in only one M model and suddenly people unhappy with that omission are predicting the end of Leica and the end of rangefinders. This is all just a little too melodramatic. Really. Jaapv, the way vinyl albums have made a comeback with young people, maybe the M7 is Leica's chance to capture new market share. The digital M10 will be known as a camera for us old fogeys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david strachan Posted March 4, 2017 Share #359 Posted March 4, 2017 I wouldn't mind an M10. It looks very nice, and seems to work better with wide lenses. The higher ISO is enticing, even though I "almost always" work at much lower speeds, or use more light or a tripod. But I just bought an M-P; a very nice camera...(even though I love the M8). The live view is all I wanted...it's enough for the time being. I'll wait...and watch the one-upmanship and bickering with amusement. By the way, the reds are still too hot.. What is don't like is "Ageism" . Old is no good...we get quite enough of that from our kids, and society, in general. Aging does bring benefits. ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted March 4, 2017 Share #360 Posted March 4, 2017 The M10 is selling very well to existing M users and nobody doubts that it will be a commercial success by Leica standards, but will it pull new users in like the M240 did? Just think of the threads in the forum by customers switching from other brands over the last years Before reading this I was scanning the "Availability" thread and was pleasantly surprised by the number of folks writing that this would be their first M. Obviously a small sample, but pleasing nonetheless. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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