jaapv Posted February 28, 2017 Share #281 Posted February 28, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) ^ Jaap: so what's your future directio, SL or other brand? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro Leica + MFT Panasonic/Leica lenses. The SL is too heavy, expensive and large to justify switching to that platform. When I changed I considered portability too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 28, 2017 Posted February 28, 2017 Hi jaapv, Take a look here M10? - Sorry, no!. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 28, 2017 Share #282 Posted February 28, 2017 Is a "rangefinder experience" much different from a "photography experience" or a "telephoto lens experience"? In my mind, "rangefinder experience" encompasses the use of the rangefinder mechanism for framing and focusing (as opposed to an SLR or EVF based camera) as well as the compact nature of the camera (compare size of M10 vs. SL, for example). For many, it is a unique experience compared to other camera types. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 28, 2017 Share #283 Posted February 28, 2017 And it's always possible (but not probable) they will make a one, just for buyers like you. Though, I don't know why you wouldn't consider the SL, as it seems like more the type of camera you are looking for. Or is it that you absolutely must have the rangefinder experience along with full featured video? If that's the case, you may very well be disappointed. I don't quite understand where you are coming from - It's not a mystery that people need and like different things. I don't want the SL, don't like the SL, it's not even right for what I do, the SL isn't even on my Radar. I was happy with what I had and it was working very well, M lenses on an M body that worked the way they are intended. I need USB and I want video. I have no inclination to buy a whole other expensive system that isn't right to get some of the things I already had in a package I don't want. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 28, 2017 Share #284 Posted February 28, 2017 Which shows that I am not "leaving Leica" BTW. I am only getting out of the M upgrade cycle. Fair enough. Perhaps Leica will surprise you with an M240 upgrade down the road. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted February 28, 2017 Share #285 Posted February 28, 2017 Because my new system will take over the relevant features of the M240. The only rreason I upgraded to the M240 was because of the EVF, LV and video. So it will be made redundant. The only reason to hang on to it would be that I find it a nice camera. OTOH the M9 will be ample for my needs and matches well with the MM1. Which shows that I am not "leaving Leica" BTW. I am only getting out of the M upgrade cycle. Out of the upgrade cycle for now anyway. Presumably when either your M9 or M240 needs to be replaced you might well be in the market for a Leica M again. It seems that if a M9 with M glass plus M4/3rds and Panny/Leica lenses can fulfill your needs, then in the future an M camera (even one without video) with M glass plus M4/3rds and Panny/Leica can fulfill your needs. I can see how your are disappointed that the M10 doesn't have video, but I think in the end you will find your new set up as a great way to go and an improvement over just your M240 or a successor that tried to do the same sort of things. And in time you may even come to love an M10 as a replacement for your M9/M240 (whichever you keep). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Spencer Posted February 28, 2017 Share #286 Posted February 28, 2017 I don't quite understand where you are coming from - It's not a mystery that people need and like different things. I don't want the SL, don't like the SL, it's not even right for what I do, the SL isn't even on my Radar. I was happy with what I had and it was working very well, M lenses on an M body that worked the way they are intended. I need USB and I want video. I have no inclination to buy a whole other expensive system that isn't right to get some of the things I already had in a package I don't want. If your M240 made you happy and was working well, is that still true? If it is, then I think the way forward is pretty clear. Keep using it until it isn't making you happy and working well. That may buy you some time to see what becomes available from Leica and others. Several things could easily happen to satisfy your needs. Leica could make a grip for the M10 that has USB. Leica could make a successor the M240 with a slighter bigger body than the M10, video, and USB. Perhaps WiFi will be improved enough that you won't feel you need a wired tether. Perhaps you will like the new Fuji mini Medium Format camera, although I suspect not if the SL was such a non-starter. In any even if the M240 makes you happy and is working well, you ought to just keep it and be happy for now. When it isn't working or making you happy is the time for the crisis and not now, and by the time that crisis arises the way forward might be a lot more obvious. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 28, 2017 Share #287 Posted February 28, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Out of the upgrade cycle for now anyway. Presumably when either your M9 or M240 needs to be replaced you might well be in the market for a Leica M again. It seems that if a M9 with M glass plus M4/3rds and Panny/Leica lenses can fulfill your needs, then in the future an M camera (even one without video) with M glass plus M4/3rds and Panny/Leica can fulfill your needs. I can see how your are disappointed that the M10 doesn't have video, but I think in the end you will find your new set up as a great way to go and an improvement over just your M240 or a successor that tried to do the same sort of things. And in time you may even come to love an M10 as a replacement for your M9/M240 (whichever you keep). You know, I really find it puzzling that out of all things Leica dropped such digital features like Video (or USB, etc.) They have easy access to Panasonic technology (for instance, the Q is nearly all Panasonic inside) and Panasonic is an acknowledged master in the field. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 28, 2017 Share #288 Posted February 28, 2017 If your M240 made you happy and was working well, is that still true? If it is, then I think the way forward is pretty clear. Keep using it until it isn't making you happy and working well. That may buy you some time to see what becomes available from Leica and others. Several things could easily happen to satisfy your needs. Leica could make a grip for the M10 that has USB. Leica could make a successor the M240 with a slighter bigger body than the M10, video, and USB. Perhaps you will like the new Fuji mini Medium Format camera, although I suspect not if the SL was such a non-starter. In any even if the M240 makes you happy and is working well, you ought to just keep it and be happy for now. When it isn't working or making you happy is the time for the crisis and not now, and by the time that crisis arises the way forward might be a lot more obvious. I didn't own the M-240. For my uses I didn't really see it as an upgrade from the M9. I was waiting for an M240 that is more like the M10 and actually with an upgrade in resolution. Yeah I will wait for a little while, for some of the reasons you suggest, but right now I'm thinking I could just sell it and move on. A month ago I was actually in mild grief. lol. Now I have accepted it and in doing so I have found solutions to things I had thought as unique to the M. I have a deep love for the M system as my preferred camera but you know what, that is more a frame of mind than anything and this has shifted that now and it has actually lead me to discover new things and rediscover old things. A cropped digital back like the IQ250 and a Contax 80mm f2 give a look and compositional experience that is very similar to a Rangefinder and Noctilux with truly astonishing IQ. I saw one recently go for £7K and I'm kicking myself I didn't get it. I can also switch to film in an instant with another back. A Mamiya 7 is like a mini large format camera in a small and light package. What I lose in the equiv. two stops of DOF from my Noctilux I gain in bucket loads of tonality and colour, it's everything I have been searching for in a digital M and some of it even in my existing digital medium format kit. IThe Mamiya 7 works particularly well in complement to my RZ which with its 110mm f2.8 shares a similar look to my Noctilux and I can slap any digital back on it right up to the IQ100. I've used the IQ100 and it is a revelation, handholding in low light with Medium Format, wow. Then the thought of getting off the digital upgrade train/rat race, the endless money pit, this sort of thing where the camera companies are dictating too much what photographers use, and instead going back to film and accepting it for what is and enjoying the beauty of it and actually discovering how it is better in some regards, is actually far more appealing that a digital M or a purist M these days. - i know this contravenes my need for USB but that is the funny changes this has bought to my life, a process of "well I'll try not tethering" and then "well if I'm going to do that I may as well shoot film" and then "if I'm going to do that I may as well shoot medium format:" and then "oh hello! look at this Mamyia 7!" It's been quite cathartic and is even having a bearing on the sort of pictures I want to to take. I got quite the surprise when I pulled out and dusted off my Mamiya RZ to find out that it weighed about the same as my M9 and Noctilux and had a similar look with far more IQ. Or I can find a used CFV-50c for less than the cost of an M10 and slap it on the back of my tiny and light V system and use lenses I have a deep affinity for. The real kicker was when a couple weeks ago I was going through my archives. I discovered a picture I took with 35mm Summilux and I was elated by how good a shot it was! i was really proud of it. I printed it out and put it on the wall and my wife saw it and was really ecstatic, she hugged me and said thankyou. It seemed a little over the top at the time. A week later she said how much it meant to her to have her picture up on the wall! "whoa whoa whoa", I said. "Sorry hun but the picture is mine". With a determined smugness I went to lightroom and gleefully pulled out the picture only to discover, that to my absolute horror the picture was taken by my wife with her Sony RX100! lol. And to rub it even more she said she didn't even compose it just snapped it. Of course I was thrilled it was my wife picture in the end but it was actually a moment of - hang on this isn't the Leica and Summilux and that happened at the time I was pining for the M Sometimes the reality of unintended consequences can be too much to bear even for the legend of Leica. What is left? I do actually have a deep love for the M System and I want to keep using it, it's my favourite camera and I think the M10 is otherwise the best M yet, but really, if they want to take away the things people really do need, and IMO, not move with the times, then they must already be prepared that people are going to move on because we are now floded with absolutely incredible choices, at like prices, and it's like being a kid in a lolly shop. If you old friend doesn't want to come out and play then it's his loss. IMO, that is a great shame really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted February 28, 2017 Share #289 Posted February 28, 2017 I am a bit puzzled by the assertion that exposure metering suddenly became important in 1983. The M5 and CL used a metering cell that swung out in front of the shutter when it was cocked. While the meter itself was excellent, it was still a compromise - mechanically weak and did not work well with lenses that protruded deep within the body and obviated a compact motor or rapid wind. It seems likely that Leica was finally reluctant to diverge from the classic body form factor. Developing the meter that read off the shutter itself was brilliant, but late for some enthusiasts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 28, 2017 Share #290 Posted February 28, 2017 That is right Pico, but the discussion was about the importance of exposure meters for photography in general. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 28, 2017 Share #291 Posted February 28, 2017 I do actually have a deep love for the M System and I want to keep using it, it's my favourite camera and I think the M10 is otherwise the best M yet, but really, if they want to take away the things people really do need, and IMO, not move with the times, then they must already be prepared that people are going to move on because we are now floded with absolutely incredible choices, at like prices, and it's like being a kid in a lolly shop. Well, that's really the crux of the issue, isn't it? Whether most potential purchasers of an M camera really need video and USB. Leica have obviously determined that the majority don't, and I can't say they're wrong about that. But what I can't understand is a photographer who says they have a deep love for the M system and describes it as their favorite camera, and then says they are giving up on the M because it doesn't include video and USB. Did your film cameras ever have video and USB? If Leica had never included video on an M camera in the first place, would you still feel the same way about the M10? Seems like you are throwing the bucket out with the bath water. The M10 is an exceptional photographic instrument, and the M11 will likely be even better. As you point out, plenty of other cameras do video and have USB. But none of them have the unique qualities that make an M camera special. If you are a photographer first, and have a love for the M system, then I cannot imagine you being disappointed in the M10. But, of course, everyone is different and has their own requirements for happiness. Honestly, though, I think the loss is more on your end than Leica's. They are likely to sell just as many, if not more, M10's as they did previous digital models, judging by initial demand. But you are walking away from your favorite camera, a system which you deeply love. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul J Posted February 28, 2017 Share #292 Posted February 28, 2017 Well, that's really the crux of the issue, isn't it? Whether most potential purchasers of an M camera really need video and USB. Leica have obviously determined that the majority don't, and I can't say they're wrong about that. But what I can't understand is a photographer who says they have a deep love for the M system and describes it as their favorite camera, and then says they are giving up on the M because it doesn't include video and USB. Did your film cameras ever have video and USB? If Leica had never included video on an M camera in the first place, would you still feel the same way about the M10? Seems like you are throwing the bucket out with the bath water. The M10 is an exceptional photographic instrument, and the M11 will likely be even better. As you point out, plenty of other cameras do video and have USB. But none of them have the unique qualities that make an M camera special. If you are a photographer first, and have a love for the M system, then I cannot imagine you being disappointed in the M10. But, of course, everyone is different and has their own requirements for happiness. Honestly, though, I think the loss is more on your end than Leica's. They are likely to sell just as many, if not more, M10's as they did previous digital models, judging by initial demand. But you are walking away from your favorite camera, a system which you deeply love. Realistically I can not escape digital and tethering. Too much is at stake on the shoots I use it on and that is actually the main reason I ever went to digital to begin with. But what I can do is choose a system that shoots film and digital with huge IQ for pretty much the same cost these days and see how it evolves. That gives: - The ability to service needs of certain projects that require digital and tethering. - The ability to replicate the look I want and need in a reasonably sized package that I know I can hand hold without issue. - Both film and digital image quality is elevated a great deal compared to digital and film M. - The ability to shoot film and digital and maintain overall aesthetic across both and for all applications. That has always been my hurdle with a low res in Leica M while needing high res and Medium Format output. The two ended up looking quite different and there was a disconnect. I'm am not for one moment suggesting that my story would ever have an impact on Leica. In some senses Leica don't loose, it makes no difference to them and their vision. I don't really loose because while I love the M, I'm not beholden to anything and it no longer makes much difference to me except for nostalgia which is useless in the end. But it does remain to be seen the impact it will have on overall sales because tethering is a very important aspect for a professional and not having it is going to stop many from buying it. In this day and age you can not assume that everyone is going to be interested in the SL instead. Driving away old customers that they hoped would go for the SL is going to have a long term affect also. Then there are going to be many who don't want the SL but could have wanted the M. Do I lose? Nah. I'm going to be happy making the pictures I want with the plethora of gear on offer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 28, 2017 Share #293 Posted February 28, 2017 Did your film cameras ever have video and USB? Well, film cameras have no sensor, ISO controls etc. either. Times change... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ash Posted February 28, 2017 Share #294 Posted February 28, 2017 I fully agree, Paul. I will stick with some M bodies to use with the lenses that are unique on M, like the Summiluxes 24 and 50 and the Super-Elmar 18, still in doubt which bodies, either MM1 and M9 or MM1 and M240, but for the rest I am moving on as well. Oh dear Jaap, are you really going to loose your fan boy status? [emoji6] Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk Pro Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff S Posted February 28, 2017 Share #295 Posted February 28, 2017 Funny with all these threads regarding video, and saying the SL is the camera for video. And yet I posted a simple question on the SL forum regarding autofocus for video and no one knows the answer. This tells me they're not using it for video either. So i question Leica owners' real need for video. Would I like the functionality on the M10. Sure. Why not? Will I use it? Maybe in a pinch. Maybe in a moment of 'this needs to be shot in video'. Will I take it specifically for video? Never. I'd use the SL or Q. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 28, 2017 Share #296 Posted February 28, 2017 Well, that's really the crux of the issue, isn't it? Whether most potential purchasers of an M camera really need video and USB. Leica have obviously determined that the majority don't, and I can't say they're wrong about that. [...] Not sure who the majority are exactly but i won't be purchasing any new Leica body as long as the M is sluggish in LV mode and doesn't allow for basic video with M & R lenses. Not going on strike here but evolution is Wesentliche (is that German?) to me. YMMV. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 28, 2017 Share #297 Posted February 28, 2017 Oh dear Jaap, are you really going to loose your fan boy status? [emoji6] Gesendet von iPhone mit Tapatalk Pro Never really had that status, I fear. The M was/is a tool for me, and so was the R, albeit beloved tools. I went to Canon when the R did not go digital and returned to Leica with the DMR and Digilux2, later M8 . I was overjoyed when the M240 allowed me to merge my uses into one camera system, but now I have to split and as Leica (once again) does not meet my wishes, I will move on as far as those wishes are concerned. However, despite everything, there has always been an M system in my house and I am not going to change that, just scale down. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted February 28, 2017 Share #298 Posted February 28, 2017 I would love to have a slimmer M-body. It confirms that Leica listens to customers having this fixed. I haven't quite caught up with what Leica calls a 'better sensor'. But it sounds good. Better quality of high ISO settings is great. But still I don't find the improvements worth the cost of up-grading. Due to: - Video is a must on today's cameras. A camera without it belong to the past. I use video 'a little' when on holiday and as a tourist. The video and the still camera is then 'in the same box'. Compact and convenient. When buying a Leica we always have to prepare ourselves for selling it again. It's the young people buying 2.hand Leicas today. They will insist on having video included. No way I am going to buy a camera I will have problems selling to young people of today. - Battery capacity is marginal on the M(240) and really 'bad' compared to competition. Reducing it is going to create problems. This must be solved! What about having a big battery as an 'block add-on' at the bottom of the camera? As the motors were attached on the analogue M's? - How good is a 'much better sensor'? So good that no software created lens adjustments have to be made? Can we use other brand lenses, like Zeiss and Voigtländer, without having purple egdes? Leica Camera AG made a choice in not including video, and in the same breath, they decided to continue the M 240 (currently with a 2K discount on package deals) for those who want video. I personally don't find the video capacity marginal. The M240 will keep going for a couple of days without EVF and Live View, and for five hours intensive shooting using EVF with Live View. The camera off time has to be set to 2 minutes. Using the camera for video is a different story. Then the battery will last for a couple of hours doing video. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 28, 2017 Share #299 Posted February 28, 2017 Not sure who the majority are exactly... Easy, it is all those who love the M system but have no need or want for video on an M camera. Leica decided those people were the majority of the M user base and created the M10 specifically for their needs. I'm a prime example. I love my M9 but lament some of its limitations. I had no desire to upgrade to the M240, but can't wait to get my hands on the M10. Obviously, this decision to omit video is a huge disappointment to the minority of users who need or want video on an M camera, and they will likely not upgrade to the M10, just as I chose not to buy the M240. Leica is obviously comfortable that they will not lose too many sales from this decision. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 28, 2017 Share #300 Posted February 28, 2017 However, it is a clear signpost in the direction that Leica wants to take the M system. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.