Why Darkroom

[Doc Henry]

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KoFe , your picture is like a painting . That's the art in the artistic sense of the term

We can keep a negative or a slide from the 50s-60s and even more...
See in "I like film" thread negative and slides in 1955's

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/205842-i-like-filmopen-thread/page-1418?do=findComment&comment=3213877
I give an appointment to the digital DNG in 50 years to see the same result

... and young people are very interested

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/08/20/living/film-not-dead-yet/

H.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Doc Henry

[pridbor]

It is not worth the trouble. You can find good deals in the USA for the same or better enlargers. My two-bits - even the Valoy enlargers were exceptionally well built. I still have one from decades ago. It has perfect alignment. Hang in there. Don't trouble yourself with importing.

 

Enjoy, and please stay in touch.

 

It's part of the collection of my uncle, who has provided me with most of my Leica Stuff at a reasonable fee.

So emotional stuff too :-) But I hear you loud and clearly, but unlike Bill above, I'm not quite sure that my wife would be

as encouraging :-)

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[pridbor]

The darkroom requires learning a craft if the results are to be good. And when the results are good, there is nothing so lovely. To repeat, nothing.

 

In my mind a loose analogy is sculptor who, because it is modern and convenient, buys a 3-D printer and sells his chisels

 

Michael I agree with your first sentence, fully! 

 

Now it so happens that I'm a (stone and Metal) Sculptor and

to the last sentence, I would add that there are things that you can accomplish with 3D Printing which is near or impossible to

create without. I did my first 3D print professionally when I designed a Display system for the Apache Helicopter some 20+ years

ago, very expensive then, not exactly art but, and would like to create some large 8ft sculptures in metal, when such becomes cost efficient to do.

Currently I have to make what I can with sheet water-cut metal and curves are very hard to accomplish. Just my 2 cents worth :-)

[pico]

A characteristic of doing strictly wet darkroom printing is the rarity of making two prints that are alike, assuming you dodge and burn, which everyone I know does, and some selectively bleach highlights, The hand is in evidence, for better or worse.

Edited February 18, 2017 by pico

[tom0511]

I just started with film and darkroom again after I have used digital for many years.

I also own 2 scanners but never have really enjoyed the process of scanning and then digital editing/printing.

For me it is either fully digital or fully analog workflow. I must say that even my first results are not perfect they are ok (film and print developping) and I really like the results, and I loved the workflow.

It takes quite some time but then it seems I am more focused and more "connected" to the workflow and the same is valid for the process of taking the image.

Taking an image and not seeing it immediatly, putting a film into the tank in the dark, and opening a developed film afterwards, looking on a paper when putting it into the developer and the image starts developping is (for me) much more magic than working in photoshop and then listening to the sound of my Epson printer.

[tom0511]

These times are long gone - you need to put some $$$ bucks down to get a well maintained darkroom equipment these days. You might be lucky if you have personal friends who give it for free. Reason for the increase in prices for film&darkroom is higher demand again. Look on Craigslist and ebay, and you get a good idea what you can get for which kind of price.

 

Getting a used M camera for cheap? Well, maybe one in BGN condition. But prices for Ms in good or excellent condition have risen since last year, too. Certainly not cheap.

 

​Still compared to 20 years ago when I did my last prints one can get a darkroom for much less money than in film times. Also internet makes it much easier to find deals.

​

[Michael Hiles]

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​Still compared to 20 years ago when I did my last prints one can get a darkroom for much less money than in film times. Also internet makes it much easier to find deals.

​

 

In my experience, you still get what you pay for. I believe that it is best to keep it simple - quality printing is a craft that does not depend on sophisticated equipment. I have a good enlarger (focomat 1c), variable contrast filters, a simple timer, trays and a washing device. The quality of my prints derives from my experience and growing my craft skills and my understanding of the elements that makes a good print.

Edited March 16, 2017 by Michael Hiles

[Martin B]

​Still compared to 20 years ago when I did my last prints one can get a darkroom for much less money than in film times. Also internet makes it much easier to find deals.

​

 

Yes, compared to film times - but not when comparing it with the times when everything went digital about > 10 years ago. You could pick up enlargers outside in the garbage, well maintained ones! This is no longer the case....there are even companies out there which purchase enlargers in bulk within the US, modify them slightly to sell them with a big profit in Europe now.

 

Same is true for analog cameras, especially M models. Prices increased in the last few years quite visibly especially for well maintained ones.

[Ko.Fe.]

These times are long gone - you need to put some $$$ bucks down to get a well maintained darkroom equipment these days. You might be lucky if you have personal friends who give it for free. Reason for the increase in prices for film&darkroom is higher demand again. Look on Craigslist and ebay, and you get a good idea what you can get for which kind of price.

 

Getting a used M camera for cheap? Well, maybe one in BGN condition. But prices for Ms in good or excellent condition have risen since last year, too. Certainly not cheap.

 

Those are real facts, not conclusions:

 

In GTA, southwestern Ontario where I'm, darkroom enlargers and else are sold for very low price. Under 200 even 100 CAD, working enlarger and trays, timer, etc. Burlington Camera where I shop for darkroom paper and chemicals has their 70-150 CAD selection of working enlarges growing, not shrinking. Most of the time, I'm alone in this room where two dozens of enlargers are collecting dust. Last time I came they added Focomat set for 185 CAD and JOBO film processor for around the same. 

If you read APUG.org this is what darkroom real users are finding to be the same all over USA.   

At rangefinder forum in 2016 I purchased nice, clean and working M-4P for 720 USD. In 2017 (now) nobody wanted my clean, working M3 for 790 USD on ebay. I took it off the list.

 

IMO, "Excellent condition" is perfectionist conclusion which is not really relevant to those like me, who are using film Leica cameras to get working negative for the darkroom. I use my film Leica cameras regularly and for years. You need to google Garry Winogrand Leica. Image is available on-line.  Garry used his two M4 not to BGN, but to UGLY condition. It is also known what he has to bring them for service periodically. Not because they were unreliable, but because he was using them. Few years ago I purchased M4-2 for 650 USD. I took thousands of frames and hundreds of rolls with it under 40+ C sun and in 28- C snowfalls. It is missing vulcanit all over, it has bump on the top plate, but the reason why I paid 350 CAD for CLA and parts in 2017 (now) was because I'm using it not as the shelf queen.   

 

My advice is to not get fooled by out of the real situation prices on darkroom gear and film Leica cameras in speculative hands on ebay. Sure, where are some 500 CAD Omega D5-XL enlargers even at my local Kijiji, but I asked on APUG and was able to get it for 100 CAD locally. 

 

 

https://cnj.craigslist.org/pho/6023972061.html

 

https://cnj.craigslist.org/pho/5998206744.html

 

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/pho/5999809715.html

 

https://newjersey.craigslist.org/pho/6005812926.html

Edited March 16, 2017 by Ko.Fe.

[M9reno]

It all depends on what you have in the darkroom.  I've gone for a Jobo CPP3 and lift bought new, a Heiland analyser, and similar other items that, while far from cheap, are not unreasonable when compared to Leica prices, and have immeasurably improved my developing and printing experience.  I ditched the trays due in great part to ventilation issues, my darkroom (basement) being small and quite enclosed.  Now even large 20" x 16" prints are done enclosed in a drum.  Everyone of course will do it differently and find joy in their own way.

[Martin B]

Those are real facts, not conclusions:

 

In GTA, southwestern Ontario where I'm, darkroom enlargers and else are sold for very low price. Under 200 even 100 CAD, working enlarger and trays, timer, etc. Burlington Camera where I shop for darkroom paper and chemicals has their 70-150 CAD selection of working enlarges growing, not shrinking. Most of the time, I'm alone in this room where two dozens of enlargers are collecting dust. Last time I came they added Focomat set for 185 CAD and JOBO film processor for around the same. 

If you read APUG.org this is what darkroom real users are finding to be the same all over USA.   

At rangefinder forum in 2016 I purchased nice, clean and working M-4P for 720 USD. In 2017 (now) nobody wanted my clean, working M3 for 790 USD on ebay. I took it off the list.

 

IMO, "Excellent condition" is perfectionist conclusion which is not really relevant to those like me, who are using film Leica cameras to get working negative for the darkroom. I use my film Leica cameras regularly and for years. You need to google Garry Winogrand Leica. Image is available on-line.  Garry used his two M4 not to BGN, but to UGLY condition. It is also known what he has to bring them for service periodically. Not because they were unreliable, but because he was using them. Few years ago I purchased M4-2 for 650 USD. I took thousands of frames and hundreds of rolls with it under 40+ C sun and in 28- C snowfalls. It is missing vulcanit all over, it has bump on the top plate, but the reason why I paid 350 CAD for CLA and parts in 2017 (now) was because I'm using it not as the shelf queen.   

 

My advice is to not get fooled by out of the real situation prices on darkroom gear and film Leica cameras in speculative hands on ebay. Sure, where are some 500 CAD Omega D5-XL enlargers even at my local Kijiji, but I asked on APUG and was able to get it for 100 CAD locally. 

 

 

https://cnj.craigslist.org/pho/6023972061.html

 

https://cnj.craigslist.org/pho/5998206744.html

 

https://philadelphia.craigslist.org/pho/5999809715.html

 

https://newjersey.craigslist.org/pho/6005812926.html

 

I am not too familiar with price development of earlier Leica M models like the M3 and M4 ones which you described. I never looked into pricing of these but therefore more closely at M6 and M7 versions. And here I could really see an increase in demand and prices. I bought my M6 in early 2016 in EX quality for $1K - impossible to find this now for this kind of price. Most go now for $1300 easily, I have seen some for $1500 online.

 

Darkroom equipment in general is available especially here in the US and where you are in Canada - but not everything is easy to get especially when looking at higher quality or larger negative format enlargers like Beseler 45 versions. You are right, I have seen several smaller small format Omega enlargers in average condition online for good prices, too (again I didn't look too much into prices of these since I don't use Omega gear). It depends again what you are looking for - what I am seeing is that prices for well maintained high quality darkroom gear is going up and is higher in demand.

[tobey bilek]

Having someone else print for you is like an artist giving the brushes, paints, and canvas to someone he does not know.   Could be nothing more than a school dropout.

[david strachan]

Mmm, Tobey.  Sometimes "school dropouts" are the ones that excel.

 

Like Ansel Adams..

http://www.thefamouspeople.com/profiles/ansel-adams-269.php

 

all best...

[pico]

Having someone else print for you is like an artist giving the brushes, paints, and canvas to someone he does not know.   Could be nothing more than a school dropout.

 

HBC had all his printing outsourced. So did Archie Lieberman which occurs to me because I audited at his lab (and was accepted). So very many photographers outsource their printing.

 

It is time to celebrate printers who turn the negative (the score) into the performance. -- Ansel Adams

 

-- Pico the school dropout

Edited April 2, 2017 by pico

[M9reno]

Presumably there are still professional darkroom printers around? Any names?

[Martin B]

Presumably there are still professional darkroom printers around? Any names?

 

There are a bunch of them - for example Tim Layton who also just founded the Darkroom Underground journal, and the site www.lightcatcher.it from Kurt Moser. In the UK it is for example Steven Taylor.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Martin B

[Michael Hiles]

Picto in Paris is still going strong. 

[eilert anders]

I am a chemist, and I like the smell of acetic acid and splashing in watery stuff!  An added benefit is that it must engender long life because many old dark room masters like Ansel Adams lived to an old and productive age!

 

Enough for Wimsey! 

 

I have adapted to the digital age for most of my work which includes power point shows and color prints.  I really don't like the process because it reminds me of Polaroid photography - no craft!  For the pure enjoyment of craft and a total control of the entire process from pressing the shutter to making the print, darkroom photography is the way to go.  It takes time but the results are worth it, and the solitude of the dark room is about as sacred as sitting on the toilet and reading some good stuff.  But unlike the bathroom, which you must share with everyone in the house, no one will want to get into and use your sacred darkroom!

[Michael Hiles]

Apropos of craft, I am a loud promoter of learning to print. Printing has classically meant on silver gelatin paper, but preparing a picture for presentation on a screen is also important and falls, IMO, under the term printing. The first job is to look at good prints, and to get a solid understanding of what a good print looks like. In this regard, it is useful to go to exhibits and look closely at what is on display. After learning where to point the camera, learning to print is the most important skill to develop – whether for silver paper and the wall, or for the computer screen. A good print is the best way to evoke that emotion that Picasso speaks of (see below). In fact, I think the final success of a picture depends greatly on how well it is printed.

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[Guest]

Why learn to play an instrument? Computer can do this much better, just have to click and the note is there!

 

 

Why paint? A camera can do this much better!

 

 

Why home-garden? You get everything in the supermarket!

 

 

Why why cook? Ready made meals everywhere!

 

 

Why drive a classic car? Public transportation does it all!

 

 

Why learn? there's Google!

 

 

Why exercise? There are pills and surgery

 

 

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