M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.

[IkarusJohn]

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9 hours ago, jaapv said:

Not a blasphemy, John. Yes, indeed, call it something else, no problem.

The rangefinder M camera is the Gestalt of the Leica brand and thus at the core of their marketing image. So it would be essential to rename such a camera without a Messucher.
Too many of Leica's customers understand German and are astute enough to see that an M mount is the mount of a rangefinder camera. So, by all means, call it an L-M or Leica N-E or whatever. A rose by any other name. Only in this case it would be a Chrysanthemum.

Which brings us to the question of the potential demand for such a camera. Yes, Leica might well sell a few dozen, maybe even more to members of this forum. But I am sure that their market research extends to the camera market as a whole. 
They have to ask themselves what the demand would be for a mirrorless camera with a severely limited functionality and the need to buy (for a non-Leica owner) a set of outrageously expensive lenses in the face of fierce competition.
As a company, it would be a heroic, some would say foolhardy, decision to spend considerable time, resources and R&D budget on such a project.

It is a whole lot simpler to create a M-like camera with an L mount - which Leica has declared to be the core of their future developments- and an advanced M adapter that would emulate an M camera completely by not only adapting the lens mount, but switching off all the extra camera functions the L mount brings - not to forget killing off Video too.
Even sell an expensive Red-Dot tube of Superglue with the adapter for diehards!
 

Oh, yes. All very interesting.  But your core point is built on sand, Jaap.  M means meßsucher; people “astute” enough (for which, read the rest of us are cave dwelling barbarians); the M mount (which isn’t the rangefinder); quote Shakespear (who?); and finish with suggesting an L mount (a pointless camera).

But your point, which you make above as well, is than in your estimation only 150 people will want one (based on what?).

You’ve been pooh-poohing this idea on this forum since it was first raised 10 years or so ago, despite Leica already conceding that such a camera was likely at some point in the future.  The whole point IS the M lenses and the M mount.  Not providing an EVF version (to go with the P, D, M and film versions) would stultify the system.  The sky didn’t fall in with the Monochrom or LCD-less versions, though you will recall the clear majority here saying how stupid the M60 was - two production versions later, it seems to be doing very well.  Leica has just released a 40MP version of the Monochrom (no.3) and is apparently above to release a similar resolution colour version.

It seems to me this widening of the M system, and release of new M lenses all the time, shows a willingness to increase the options of its best camera system.  Call me unsophisticated, but the appeal of the system is that the lenses are manual focus, aperture is on the lens barrel, shutter and ISO  (now) on the topdeck and the thing feels and works like a camera, rather than a computer.  I use the clip on evf on my M10-D from time to time and it’s useful.  Would I prefer if it was built in?  Probably, as I don’t like the clip on; would I change my M cameras for EVF versions?  Probably not.  

But, and here’s the real kicker, do I miss the optical rangefinder when using my X1D II or SL?  No.  I don’t really notice it.  People spend a lot of time comparing evf’s but they’ve got so good, I don’t really think they are a technical drawback (at least since the dreadful blackout of the first T).

I think there’s an EVF version of the M (an M10-E) around the corner.  I won’t be buying one, but I don’t see any of the reasons expressed here for the last 10 years being reasons not to make one.
 

[jaapv]

Well, if it hasn't materialized in over a decade? Let Leica surprise us then. You may have noticed that over the decade I have been rather consistent in saying that Leica is the only one who is able to estimate the viability - not shrill demands on an Internet forum.

[SrMi]

Ideally, Leica would provide a hybrid Messsucher -- note the three 's'  -- without compromising any experience of a pure optical viewfinder/rangefinder. The technology is not yet there. Many of us boomers have deteriorating eyesight. Some refer to the eyesight issue as to why they abandoned the optical viewfinders. An EVF only M mount camera would allow those with eyesight issues and those who are intimidated by the concept of the rangefinder to continue or start using an M camera. 

[analog-digital]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

Nothing to do with it - AF or not, it is a lens property. The body can adapt to the lens configuration. It is not what I want - it is what the customers want - one needs customers to sell a product.

Personally I would never consider such a bastardized camera. I enjoy my M cameras, I enjoy my EVF cameras of various brands, but something combining the drawbacks of both systems? Thanks but no thanks.

Somehow that sounds like set ideas / opinions, too bad, today you should be a bit more flexible. Keep up with the times and enjoy the old!

And finally take pictures with what you have. Just be happy.

Edited February 8, 2020 by analog-digital

[IkarusJohn]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

Well, if it hasn't materialized in over a decade? Let Leica surprise us then. You may have noticed that over the decade I have been rather consistent in saying that Leica is the only one who is able to estimate the viability - not shrill demands on an Internet forum.

Now such “demands” are “shrill”?

I tend to take more notice when someone of Stefan Daniels’ standing says such a camera will come one day.  

What has happened in the last decade, of course, is that EVF technology has improved and the traditional meßsucher has plateaued.  I have had a number of M cameras (film and digital), and I really can’t see the coupled rangefinder and optical viewfinder improving much beyond the current M10 based cameras; at least, not without some electronic enhancement.  For myself, if I have an optical viewfinder, I don’t really want too much in the viewfinder.  What seems interesting is that Leica is releasing the M10-M with a new, higher resolution sensor, and apparently a colour version of that camera, also under the M10 marque.  I wonder if PeterH’s fear that the M camera has gone as far as it can has become reality ...

However, the demands of modern lenses might just be the push for an EVF version.  Leica continues to produce demanding M lenses, despite its commitment to the L mount.  I imagine for many, the care needed to accurately focus the 75 Noctilux, 90 Summilux and 50 Noctilux 0.95 wide open might make an EVF based M10-E a very attractive option to add to their other M cameras.  It might also appeal to those young photographers who have never experienced film, aren’t “astute” enough to know that M means meßsucher (frankly, who cares), but love the look and idea of a digital camera as stripped back and cool looking.  They are cool, right?  And manual focusing with basic direct control?  What’s not to like?

You could call it the ME!

Edited February 9, 2020 by IkarusJohn

[jaapv]

I appear to have stepped on your toes - Won't change my opinion though.  I think such a camera will have very limited appeal. And, as I keep repeating, Leica will decide, not you or I.  If Leica makes the decision to produce, the marketplace will be the final test. I wonder how many young photographers will be prepared or able to cough up a minimum of 25.000 Euro for such a body plus a couple of the lenses you mention.

[IkarusJohn]

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4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

I appear to have stepped on your toes - Won't change my opinion though.  I think such a camera will have very limited appeal. And, as I keep repeating, Leica will decide, not you or I.  If Leica makes the decision to produce, the marketplace will be the final test.

Jaap, I’m sure your english is good enough to chose your words with care.  I’m not trying to change your mind, or your opinion.  I am, however, simply challenging statements that don’t really stand scrutiny, and are expressed in a way which is perhaps dismissive to the cognoscenti - the people who really know what they’re talking about ...

I’m not sure why you think I decide anything.  Simply because I might hold a different view, question your comfortable assertions (if I maybe so bold), does not warrant you making that suggestion.  What on earth makes you think that saying such a thing is in any way reasonable?  Of course, the market will decide - it did so with the M5 and apparently with the T.  There were many here who wrote off the S2, until Leica pointed out that it exceeded its sales predictions.  What you read on the internet is rarely accurate.  But, it can impact sales (for the credulous) and we also know that Leica does respond to what is written here.

One of the delights of Leica is that they delight us with continuing to make the M camera, the Monochrom and the M10-D.  The only surprise would be if they stopped surprising us.

[lct]

A new AF body competing with the SL would be surprising, to say the least.

[jaapv]

That is a good point - It might complicate matters. OTOH, Leica has both the TL2 and the CL

[Guest]

It would be amazing if they could make a leica m with EVF ,IBIS ,AF and all the other stuff other cameras have.

Wow i cant wait.

[Herr Barnack]

I'm holding out for the Leica M 5000. 

It will have a 50 terrabyte sensor, ISO range from 1 to 50 billion and will have a buffer that will hold 500,000 images without causing a log jam.  It will be self propelled, so you will be able to program it and  send it out to make images for you while you sit at home and nurse four fingers of Pappy Van Winkle 23 year Family Reserve..

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, IkarusJohn said:

Now such “demands” are “shrill”?

I tend to take more notice when someone of Stefan Daniels’ standing says such a camera will come one day.  

What has happened in the last decade, of course, is that EVF technology has improved and the traditional meßsucher has plateaued.  I have had a number of M cameras (film and digital), and I really can’t see the coupled rangefinder and optical viewfinder improving much beyond the current M10 based cameras; at least, not without some electronic enhancement.  For myself, if I have an optical viewfinder, I don’t really want too much in the viewfinder.  What seems interesting is that Leica is releasing the M10-M with a new, higher resolution sensor, and apparently a colour version of that camera, also under the M10 marque.  I wonder if PeterH’s fear that the M camera has gone as far as it can has become reality ...

However, the demands of modern lenses might just be the push for an EVF version.  Leica continues to produce demanding M lenses, despite its commitment to the L mount.  I imagine for many, the care needed to accurately focus the 75 Noctilux, 90 Summilux and 50 Noctilux 0.95 wide open might make an EVF based M10-E a very attractive option to add to their other M cameras.  It might also appeal to those young photographers who have never experienced film, aren’t “astute” enough to know that M means meßsucher (frankly, who cares), but love the look and idea of a digital camera as stripped back and cool looking.  They are cool, right?  And manual focusing with basic direct control?  What’s not to like?

You could call it the ME!

From the majority of posts in this discussion, it sounds like the main desire for an EVF is to improve focus accuracy. Would a focus confirmation LED in the current optical finder suffice?

[rramesh]

On 2/7/2020 at 9:09 PM, raadoo said:

Just spitballing, but how about this lineup?

Don't shoot.

 

 

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Too many products with no defined market sizing.

From a business sense this is what I think will make sense for Leica and Leica is already on this path.

1. M - The M Rangefinder is how Leica started. There is a full range of lenses and a loyal customer following. It probably makes sense to continue this. Unfortunately there is not much room for Leica to innovate here. Adapting this range in limited ways, e.g. cosmetics, better sensor, dynamic range, monochrome, designer limited editions is what we can see.
2. SL - Many advanced amateurs and professionals demand more technology for their needs - autofocus, EVF, video etc. This is where the SL comes in. A new mount to support these needs and a new set of full frame lenses. Ability to adapt M lenses should the user need this. I see more room for innovation here learning from the competition. e.g. UI, sensor, ease-of use/customization, electronics, body etc. Strong competition from the likes of Sony, Nikon etc.
3. Adapted Range (Panasonic?) - One option I see, would be for Leica to work with a Panasonic, Sony, Nikon to adapt their sensors to suit M lenses. Changes to sensor cover glass, micro lenses etc. but using a standard Sony or Nikon sensor. Only enhanced value would be the ability to use M lenses. 

Again any manufacturing would need to factor in market size, revenues and competitive pressures.

Edited February 9, 2020 by rramesh

[LocalHero1953]

One of the problems of putting more electronics into a M body would be heat management. Hence a M with EVF may not have capacity to deal with AF, AE, IBIS etc as well. And so such a 'M' would not necessarily compete with the SL - for the moment at least. It would have to remain simple and mainly manual.

Edited February 9, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[lct]

6 hours ago, Kwesi said:

From the majority of posts in this discussion, it sounds like the main desire for an EVF is to improve focus accuracy. Would a focus confirmation LED in the current optical finder suffice?

I'm afraid not since the focus patch would remain at the centre of the frame, unless Leica can manage to implement a moving focus point, which would imply an hybrid viewfinder i suspect

[Mr.Prime]

if they can make a full frame CL we don’t also need an M with EVF.

[jdlaing]

That’s what an SL is for.

[Jeff S]

Leica is seemingly careful to distinguish the CL from the SL, so that it’s not just a mini version.  I think certain aspects like weather sealing, OIS in some zooms, certain control differences, etc are quite deliberate.  If the M ever comes in a version with EVF/hybrid finder, I’m sure Leica will pay close attention to all the other distinguishing characteristics as well, especially given the established price points.

Jeff

[SrMi]

13 hours ago, Kwesi said:

From the majority of posts in this discussion, it sounds like the main desire for an EVF is to improve focus accuracy. Would a focus confirmation LED in the current optical finder suffice?

Focus confirmation LED is typically not 100% reliable (my experience with Nikon cameras).

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[Paulus]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb IkarusJohn:

Now such “demands” are “shrill”?

I tend to take more notice when someone of Stefan Daniels’ standing says such a camera will come one day.  

What has happened in the last decade, of course, is that EVF technology has improved and the traditional meßsucher has plateaued.  I have had a number of M cameras 

By the way, the M is spelled Messsucher ( with Kapital M ) today in German. In the pre 2005 time it was different but they changed it. Making things simpler with their spelling of words i believe. I hope the only thing they will change in the M....☺️