M11 for me Posted January 23, 2019 Share #781 Posted January 23, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) vor 2 Stunden schrieb wlaidlaw: The problem is the volume of the order that Leica can place for such a back illuminated sensor, which also has the angled micro-lenses and shallow pits, that provide the current 24MP FF Leica sensors with such good image quality, especially with wide lenses. A sensor maker may well say, give me an order for 100,000 of them and no problem at all. An order for 10,000 would be far less attractive for such a custom sensor. This is always going to be the problem with a boutique manufacturer, such as Leica, unless they can piggy back on another manufacturer's product, like they did with the CL sensor from Sony. Maybe the Panasonic S1R 47MP sensor (or a mildly customised version of it) will be the answer. I don't know if it has been disclosed as yet, whether this is back illuminated or not. It is also going to be very interesting to see if Sigma will bring out an FF camera with a Foveon type stacked array sensor rather than Bayer pattern sensor, in L mount. Could that be an alternative for Leica? Wilson That sounds to me that you really understand the ins and outs of this business. Great. Congratulations. Otherwise it would be just wild speculation and making up things as facts without any expertise. But then you start your post with „the problem is . . .“. That is an indication that you might maybe not so much in that business. Otherwise you would come up with solutions rather that problems. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 23, 2019 Posted January 23, 2019 Hi M11 for me, Take a look here M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wlaidlaw Posted January 23, 2019 Share #782 Posted January 23, 2019 2 hours ago, Alex U. said: That sounds to me that you really understand the ins and outs of this business. Great. Congratulations. Otherwise it would be just wild speculation and making up things as facts without any expertise. But then you start your post with „the problem is . . .“. That is an indication that you might maybe not so much in that business. Otherwise you would come up with solutions rather that problems. I ran and/or set up various successful businesses for 40 years and am currently living on the proceeds of selling them. What I posted is not rocket science but merely business common sense, which anyone who has had to work in a supply chain for a smaller company, would be able to explain to you. 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted January 23, 2019 Share #783 Posted January 23, 2019 (edited) it must then be true 💪 How only could Leica get the sensors for the M10? Maybe it is after all rocket science 👏🏻 Edited January 23, 2019 by Alex U. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 24, 2019 Share #784 Posted January 24, 2019 By paying a lot of money. The only camera with a known sensor price is the M9: 1800 $ in 2009. For the M240 they bought through a small designer startup from a manufacturer who is used to selling in smaller quantities outside the camera world. Nowadays they make use of their Panasonic connection. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted February 2, 2019 Share #785 Posted February 2, 2019 On 1/23/2019 at 12:16 PM, wlaidlaw said: The problem is the volume of the order that Leica can place for such a back illuminated sensor, which also has the angled micro-lenses and shallow pits, that provide the current 24MP FF Leica sensors with such good image quality, especially with wide lenses. A sensor maker may well say, give me an order for 100,000 of them and no problem at all. An order for 10,000 would be far less attractive for such a custom sensor. This is always going to be the problem with a boutique manufacturer, such as Leica, unless they can piggy back on another manufacturer's product, like they did with the CL sensor from Sony. Maybe the Panasonic S1R 47MP sensor (or a mildly customised version of it) will be the answer. I don't know if it has been disclosed as yet, whether this is back illuminated or not. It is also going to be very interesting to see if Sigma will bring out an FF camera with a Foveon type stacked array sensor rather than Bayer pattern sensor, in L mount. Could that be an alternative for Leica? Wilson Foveons have problems with light sensitivity and the processing of the signal and data is slow, so I don't see a Foveon as a good solution for reportage cameras. A Foveon would be ideal for a studio or landscape camera, something like the S medium format camera. The problem with Foveons is in the limited resources Sigma has for the development of the technology (sensor, algorithms, dedicated processors). All cameras are more like a personal project of Sigma's CEO (son of the founder of the company). For the moment Sigma will provide a good set of lenses for the L-mount, and that is great. I don't know the technology behind Panasonic' sensors. Panasonic is very focused on video, so fast read out and electronic shutters may be their priority. Panasonic could be a fabulous technologic partner for Leica anyway. The new L-mount Panasonic cameras point to that "video preference" and "pro" design of the bodies, with many buttons and wheels, very different to Leica's approach. I was surprised by the extremely high resolution of the new electronic viewfinders. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted February 4, 2019 Share #786 Posted February 4, 2019 Processors and algorithms are more and more important than sensors and lenses... https://www.theverge.com/2018/10/25/18021944/google-night-sight-pixel-3-camera-samples Leica is learning with their Huawei project... and that is good (for Leica). The next M11 and relatives will have a better sensor, but the key seems to be in the way the information is processed... and interpolated. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 4, 2019 Share #787 Posted February 4, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) Not sure whom would pay Leica prices for any sort of "computational photography". 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larsv Posted February 4, 2019 Share #788 Posted February 4, 2019 On 1/23/2019 at 12:16 PM, wlaidlaw said: The problem is the volume of the order that Leica can place for such a back illuminated sensor, which also has the angled micro-lenses and shallow pits, that provide the current 24MP FF Leica sensors with such good image quality, especially with wide lenses. A sensor maker may well say, give me an order for 100,000 of them and no problem at all. An order for 10,000 would be far less attractive for such a custom sensor. This is always going to be the problem with a boutique manufacturer, such as Leica, unless they can piggy back on another manufacturer's product, like they did with the CL sensor from Sony. Maybe the Panasonic S1R 47MP sensor (or a mildly customised version of it) will be the answer. I don't know if it has been disclosed as yet, whether this is back illuminated or not. It is also going to be very interesting to see if Sigma will bring out an FF camera with a Foveon type stacked array sensor rather than Bayer pattern sensor, in L mount. Could that be an alternative for Leica? Wilson I'd respectfully disagree. Not being a physicist, to me it makes sense that Leica is knowledgeable and innovative when it relates to the streaming of light. Implicit in that is, that they understand the requirements to receive that light in the best possible way on a focus field/sensor and understand what the sensor receptor characteristics should be for translation of the light signals into digital signals. Therefore, I'm not sure that quantity of order counts here as the sole or even main consideration. If the developments help the sensor developer to make better sensors and with that makes them more competitive, it may be well worth their efforts. Leica would gain at least the timing benefit: they are the first to benefit from a better sensor and would be able to negotiate an exclusivity period. When relying on existing knowledge and production, they would possibly put themselves in an awkward position. Just saying, it's not all about production efficiency. I do believe Leica is playing the game very well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 4, 2019 Share #789 Posted February 4, 2019 1 hour ago, lct said: Not sure whom would pay Leica prices for any sort of "computational photography". All digital cameras involve “computational photography.” Yet, people seem to have no problem paying Leica prices for the M, Q, SL, CL, etc. All that really matters to photographers is quality of output, usability, and durability. As long as they can get that “Leica look” 😉, I don’t think most photographers will care how they get there. The ones who do care are still shooting film. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 4, 2019 Share #790 Posted February 4, 2019 (edited) 39 minutes ago, larsv said: I'd respectfully disagree. Not being a physicist, to me it makes sense that Leica is knowledgeable and innovative when it relates to the streaming of light. Implicit in that is, that they understand the requirements to receive that light in the best possible way on a focus field/sensor and understand what the sensor receptor characteristics should be for translation of the light signals into digital signals. Therefore, I'm not sure that quantity of order counts here as the sole or even main consideration. If the developments help the sensor developer to make better sensors and with that makes them more competitive, it may be well worth their efforts. Leica would gain at least the timing benefit: they are the first to benefit from a better sensor and would be able to negotiate an exclusivity period. When relying on existing knowledge and production, they would possibly put themselves in an awkward position. Just saying, it's not all about production efficiency. I do believe Leica is playing the game very well. Leica are piggy backing onto the sensor production of larger manufacturers already. The CL/TL2 sensor is believed to come from Sony and is thought to be nearly identical to the sensor used by Sony in their a6300 cameras. Although Leica has great experience on light paths though exotic glasses, such as anomalous dispersion and both spherical and asymmetric lens forms, I don't think that necessarily translates well to sensor manufacture. When they have been more deeply involved in the past, with Kodak, they did not exactly cover themselves in glory, with the UV contamination and coating corrosion problems. I would be very happy to have an SL2 with Leica's very cleverly designed customisable button interface and using the IBIS Panasonic S1R sensor with pixel shifting/image merging etc. I would imagine that Panasonic's processing engine is way in advance of the now elderly Maestro II (Fuji?) that Leica currently use. We now know that the S1R sensor is not back illuminated (BIS) but uses photon pipe technology to arrive at similar high ISO low noise performance. It would also meet a Leica requirement to have variable angled micro-lenses, for optimum wide angle performance. Where a business partner has what seems like a good component, available at a considerably lower price than designing and manufacturing one yourself, it would be silly not to avail yourself of that, supposing of course, that Panasonic is prepared to make these sensors and processors available to Leica. Leica can then customise the DNG to arrive at the picture quality and colour balance that is more "Leica." Porsche for example, has no qualms about using Audi engines, when and where they are fit for purpose, with no apparent downside. Wilson Edited February 4, 2019 by wlaidlaw 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaynes4@me.com Posted February 5, 2019 Share #791 Posted February 5, 2019 On 2/1/2017 at 6:24 PM, jaapv said: Oh, I do have a wish: bring video back, if possible in such a discrete manner as not to upset the more traditional users. Consider the tradition of the Leica Travel Camera as promoted by Dr.Paul Wolff; he carried an extra cine camera to supplement his Leica travel photography. If you can afford a Leica System you can afford to get a dedicated video camera. I really appreciate no video on my M10. Although I admit, I never use the video on the Q and I hardly notice it until I need to update the firmware and then, there it is, necessary to the process and never mentioned. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 5, 2019 Share #792 Posted February 5, 2019 If you buy a compact M camera you do not want to schlepp a video camera 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 6, 2019 Share #793 Posted February 6, 2019 8 hours ago, jaapv said: If you buy a compact M camera you do not want to schlepp a video camera Why not? You have a high quality stills camera ... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 6, 2019 Share #794 Posted February 6, 2019 Some people don't want to carry two or more cameras with them. I know at least one grumpy old guy like that . More seriously, reportage cameras like Ms should be able to do video the same basic way as mere P & S cameras in my most humble opinion. Unless Leica Ms are definitely stuck in the Jurassic era or luxury fashion boutiques that is . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted February 6, 2019 Share #795 Posted February 6, 2019 8 hours ago, lct said: More seriously, reportage cameras like Ms should be able to do video the same basic way as mere P & S cameras in my most humble opinion. I'd seriously question whether the M cameras should still carry the 'reportage' tag. I suspect that there are many more effective options for reportage out there. My objection to the M as a video unit is simply because it is not designed to shoot video and will only do so well with extreme care. It sort of goes against the grain for Leica to include a feature which is likely to be (very) poorly used for the most part IMO. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 6, 2019 Share #796 Posted February 6, 2019 2 hours ago, pgk said: I'd seriously question whether the M cameras should still carry the 'reportage' tag. I suspect that there are many more effective options for reportage out there. My objection to the M as a video unit is simply because it is not designed to shoot video and will only do so well with extreme care. It sort of goes against the grain for Leica to include a feature which is likely to be (very) poorly used for the most part IMO. Agreed. Plus, whatever Leica offers in video functionality will be wholly insufficient to any true video enthusiast. Thus they would be adding this feature to appeal to a very small segment of the M user base that wants a video function on their M camera. Just doesn’t seem like it makes a lot of sense to go that route. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted February 9, 2019 Share #797 Posted February 9, 2019 On 1/23/2019 at 6:21 AM, Kwesi said: Absolutely. The M10 has finally brought Leica back to its proper size, but let's not forget that it was a combination of the best films available and the the M ergonomics and lenses that has made it what it is today. The only thing now that desperately needs improvement is the sensor. It's ok but not up to today's best and that's a shame. Hopefully Leica addresses this in the M11 Rumors: Leica Q2 with 47MP sensor, Leica S3 with 64MP sensorhttps://leicarumors.com/2019/02/08/rumors-leica-q2-with-47mp-sensor-leica-s3-with-64mp-sensor.aspx/ This is beginning to get interesting 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
budjames Posted February 9, 2019 Share #798 Posted February 9, 2019 I have never shot with the SL, but I have held one at the Lecia Soho store in NYC. The camera is obscenely large and heavy with even native primes. let along native zooms. I will stick with my M10 and small M primes. When I need zooms, I use my Fuji X system which is smaller, lighter and less expensive than the Canon 5D MarkIII system the Fuji replaced. Regards, Bud James Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
WvE Posted February 11, 2019 Share #799 Posted February 11, 2019 Tried the Epson R-D1, please Leica bring that shutter winding lever to the M11, its so fun to use! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted February 11, 2019 Share #800 Posted February 11, 2019 22 minutes ago, WvE said: Tried the Epson R-D1, please Leica bring that shutter winding lever to the M11, its so fun to use! Perhaps a little door to shovel coal in as well? 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now