jaapv Posted February 20, 2017 Share #241 Posted February 20, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) What? The M10 is not innovative? What rock are you under? Not really, the functionality is less, battery life is less, the sensor is only marginally improved, it has a better EVF because of a higher specified - but still not up-to-date- processor. The main improvement (which is important to many) is the lesser depth, which in turn enabled a higher viewfinder enlargement and a larger ocular which provides better eye relief. Not easy to do, especially the size reduction, and I admire Leica for it, but innovation? not really. The total is a very attractive and capable camera, and a potential bestseller, but hardly one that is on the bleeding edge of digital technology. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 20, 2017 Posted February 20, 2017 Hi jaapv, Take a look here M 11 will be around in less than 4 years. The speculations and facts.. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
digitalfx Posted February 20, 2017 Share #242 Posted February 20, 2017 Not really, the functionality is less, battery life is less, the sensor is only marginally improved, it has a better EVF because of a higher specified - but still not up-to-date- processor. The main improvement (which is important to many) is the lesser depth, which in turn enabled a higher viewfinder enlargement and a larger ocular which provides better eye relief. Not easy to do, especially the size reduction, and I admire Leica for it, but innovation? not really. The total is a very attractive and capable camera, and a potential bestseller, but hardly one that is on the bleeding edge of digital technology. Definitely not on the bleeding edge of technology, but has Leica ever been? The M240 was way behind the tech curve when it came out, I feel like the M10 closes that gap for the first time and holds its own against competitors today. I think if you tried one for a few weeks you might have a different opinion. Its significantly faster, and the processor is much improved over the M240...overall when you factor all the improvements its a big upgrade. YMMV, and clearly it does...but Id suggest you get your hands on one and try it out for more than an afternoon before reserving judgement. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 20, 2017 Share #243 Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) Not really, the functionality is less, battery life is less, the sensor is only marginally improved, it has a better EVF because of a higher specified - but still not up-to-date- processor. The main improvement (which is important to many) is the lesser depth, which in turn enabled a higher viewfinder enlargement and a larger ocular which provides better eye relief. Not easy to do, especially the size reduction, and I admire Leica for it, but innovation? not really. The total is a very attractive and capable camera, and a potential bestseller, but hardly one that is on the bleeding edge of digital technology. How did we get to "bleeding edge technology" all of a sudden - I smell a straw man! Back to innovation: removing stupid video finally ditching pointless USB (you couldn't even charge with) improved weather sealing improved sensor improved processor improved viewfinder ditching the crappy EVF in favour of something that at least comparable rather than behind other offerings ISO dial thinner - though that's arguably retrograde ... One man's poison ... Edited February 20, 2017 by IkarusJohn Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 20, 2017 Share #244 Posted February 20, 2017 Definitely not on the bleeding edge of technology, but has Leica ever been? The M240 was way behind the tech curve when it came out, I feel like the M10 closes that gap for the first time and holds its own against competitors today. I think if you tried one for a few weeks you might have a different opinion. Its significantly faster, and the processor is much improved over the M240...overall when you factor all the improvements its a big upgrade. YMMV, and clearly it does...but Id suggest you get your hands on one and try it out for more than an afternoon before reserving judgement. Possibly, but I doubt it. The M10 has actually pushed me in another direction by making Leica's direction clear. I am phasing out the M system for wildlife and replacing it with the DG Vario-Elmar on the GX8. Actually I am very impressed by the quality that I am getting out of the lens and the new Panasonic 20 MP MFT sensor. The DG Summilux 15 has convinced me as well for casual and travel photography. i am ogling a Nocticron. Which does not mean that the M240 has been retired. It is still my favorite body on the Summiluxes 24 and 50 and the Super-Elmar 18, the APO-Telyt 135 is a magic lens as well, but for the rest I will be selling off most of my R lenses and a few of the M ones too. In this sense the M10 is a seminal camera. It forces the customer to make a clear decision on his photography, something the previous digital Ms never did. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 20, 2017 Share #245 Posted February 20, 2017 How did we get to "bleeding edge technology" all of a sudden - I smell a straw man! Back to innovation: removing stupid video finally ditching pointless USB (you couldn't even charge with) improved weather sealing improved sensor improved processor improved viewfinder ditching the crappy EVF in favour of something that at least comparable rather than behind other offerings ISO dial thinner - though that's arguably retrograde ... One man's poison ... I have heard some professional opinions on USB and Video, maybe not so stupid as a feature. It would have been innovative to improve on them seriously, instead of simply throwing the towel... Which goes for the EVF too, using one from a three-years old lesser model is not really impressive. Evolutionary improvements can hardly be classified as innovation. Now if they would have followed up on their patent of a digital rangefinder... However I am beginning to suspect that they only filed that one to scupper Konost, not as a serious proposition. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cirke Posted February 20, 2017 Share #246 Posted February 20, 2017 but hardly one that is on the bleeding edge of digital technology. exactly ! :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 20, 2017 Share #247 Posted February 20, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Back to innovation: removing stupid video finally ditching pointless USB (you couldn't even charge with) improved weather sealing improved sensor improved processor improved viewfinder ditching the crappy EVF in favour of something that at least comparable rather than behind other offerings ISO dial thinner - though that's arguably retrograde ... One man's poison ... I consider these incremental improvements, along with some deletions (that many might like, while others may not). By comparison, the M240, while controversial, was far more innovative (by Leica standards).....first CMOS M, first LV, first EVF, first video...with an equal dose of incremental improvements... weather sealing, shutter re-cock, processor/ buffer, etc. Agree 'one man's poison'.... but not the innovation terminology. Just because the improvements might be celebrated, or thought long overdue' doesn't make them innovative. Jeff 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
IkarusJohn Posted February 20, 2017 Share #248 Posted February 20, 2017 Perhaps. I used the term in context - as a whole, I do think the M10 is innovative for Leica; but objectively? No, incremental, I agree. I don't think Leica has ever been "bleeding edge", but if you take their products as a whole, I do think it's innovative. The S is a fine relatively compact medium format dSLR (perhaps getting a little stale after the X1D release? too expensive and big for me); SL with its excellent EVF and as a universal platform for Leica lenses; M the only digital rangefinder with fabulous lenses; TL with its APS-C sensor, touch screen and excellent compact Leica lenses. Leica is out of step with the mainstream on each of its products, and has forged its own niche; so I do think it is an innovative company. The M10, perhaps not so much in the context of previous M cameras; but it is a significant incremental step when compared to the M(240), which I still think was a wrong step in the wrong direction - just saying, I know you disagree. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted February 20, 2017 Share #249 Posted February 20, 2017 (edited) Well I'm trading my M240 for the M10. I use the M as an RF camera, with lenses from 28-90 (currently 28-50). The M240 was the best digital RF for my needs, but the M10 hits my priorities head on...even better RF and VF/focusing, and better weather sealing. I would have preferred a bigger battery, even with M240 dimensions (especially given minimal...20g... weight savings), but can't have everything. Better out-of-camera color and/or low light capability will be bonuses. Jeff Edited February 20, 2017 by Jeff S Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRIago Posted February 21, 2017 Share #250 Posted February 21, 2017 I don't even know what the M11 will be but for sure it won't be that hot to make me sell the M9 for it. Maybe the M12 will. Ha. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lanetomlane Posted February 21, 2017 Share #251 Posted February 21, 2017 How long do you all expect to live? . I'd be happy to live long enough to see the end of the DFS Sale. (For those who don't live in the UK DFS is a furniture company who seem to have a never-ending sale.) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 21, 2017 Share #252 Posted February 21, 2017 I expect the M11 will be a modest upgrade over the M10. It will have a slightly better sensor, with perhaps a bump in resolution, dynamic range, and noise reduction with even better high ISO capability. The weakness of the M10 seems to be in highlight recovery, so maybe that will be improved. It will probably offer a new and improved visoflex EVF. And perhaps minor ergonomic changes after assimilating all the feedback from the M10. But I would expect evolutionary rather than revolutionary. The M12, however, could see some major revisions, such as an all-digital (rather than mechanical) rangefinder focusing system and a hybrid optical/electronic viewfinder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRJohn Posted February 21, 2017 Share #253 Posted February 21, 2017 My wish: interchangeable back, so you can turn it into an MD and a series of magnetic dots of different colors: red, black, blue, safari... Seriously, please spend the next few years to come up with the best hybrid VF ever and forever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
-ph- Posted February 22, 2017 Share #254 Posted February 22, 2017 For the M11 there are still some improvements for the rangefinder, I would like to see: more eye relief . The M10 rangefinder is nice, but still, I can just see the 35mm lines wearing glasses replace the metal masks for creating the frame lines with a micro-led or oled display. This would enable single, perfectly sized frame lines for any focal length and distance. Also would enable to display other informations in the viewfinder. This could replace the 7 segment display at the bottom of the viewfinder at the same time. If one would want to be bold, even focus peaking could be shown inside the viewfinder with the display. More lenses. Perhaps a 150/f4, some tiny f2.8 lenses. What about a modern collapsible lens, or a true macro lens, a pancake lens? The more the M line moves in the direction of its classic rangefinder ancestors, the more it makes sense to have a Q with an L mount as the "modern" counterpart. It can offer all the features the M skips, as EVF, video, etc. Create a small line of small lenses like the 28/1.7. While the SL lenses trade off size vs. perfection towards perfection, go for the size for the QL. Peter 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwnheaney Posted May 3, 2017 Share #255 Posted May 3, 2017 Any prospect of a digital M3? i.e. 0.91 viewfinder and no screen. I'd settle for an M10 D otherwise! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 3, 2017 Share #256 Posted May 3, 2017 Any prospect of a digital M3? i.e. 0.91 viewfinder and no screen. I'd settle for an M10 D otherwise! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk The problem with that is it means clunky goggles lenses for anything wider than 50mm. It is why a lot of folks preferred the M2 or its M4 successor. I don't know if you have tried the larger M10 VF but it's nearly M3 definition. I just hope they put it onto the M240 successor, as that is what I am waiting for. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwnheaney Posted May 3, 2017 Share #257 Posted May 3, 2017 I only use 50mm and sometimes 90mm, so I'm talking my own book! But for all the analog diehards (such as myself with multiple M3, M2, M4 etc) I would definitely consider buying screenless M10 Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted May 3, 2017 Share #258 Posted May 3, 2017 I suppose I am one to talk about clunky, I am currently using a 1960 LTM Summaron 35/2.8 I have just acquired in virtually new, unmarked/unused condition with a SBLOO 35mm VF on my IIF and a SBOOI 50m VF on my 0 series, where I even have to put the lens plug in, to wind the film on, with the 0's uncapped shutter. Wilson Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramarren Posted May 3, 2017 Share #259 Posted May 3, 2017 I do not care one wit about being "on the bleeding edge of digital camera technology" ... What I want is a camera that presents the use experience of the Leica M which has been honed and refined over the past half century so nicely. Frankly, the M-D and the M10 just as they are now do this well enough for my satisfaction, the M-D with the present M10's viewfinder and NO OTHER CHANGES AT ALL are what I'd like most. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted May 3, 2017 Share #260 Posted May 3, 2017 The place touch screens I feel have no place, is in cars. ... Yes, it is impossible to feel a pixel. Buick learned that over 30 years ago. . 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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