jaapv Posted January 23, 2017 Share #21 Posted January 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) I'm not going to try it - the M240 has too many advantages over the M10 for me to consider replacement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted January 23, 2017 Posted January 23, 2017 Hi jaapv, Take a look here Bad M10 ISO dial is bad. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
jdlaing Posted January 23, 2017 Share #22 Posted January 23, 2017 I'm not going to try it - the M240 has too many advantages over the M10 for me to consider replacement. I must repeat..........Liar liar pants on fire. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 23, 2017 Share #23 Posted January 23, 2017 No - actually I am moving to Panasonic for my wildlife use and staying with the M240. A very simple sum, money does not even come into it. For M10 1. shiny new Monkey Thing 2. better high ISO performance 3. better EVF 4. better RF/VF 5. simpler buttons etc. For M240: 1.I like the camera, especially in its a-la-carte guise 2. similar regular ISO range perforance (Shhh...don't tell anybody - I preferred the M240 shots in Sean's comparison ...) 3. acceptable EVF -just- 4. I never saw anything wrong with the 240 VF with my use. 5. better size for my hands 6. better battery life 7. Video! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Ricoh Posted January 23, 2017 Share #24 Posted January 23, 2017 In that case it is just an ornament. I am fine with such a dial as i know that many users will appreciate it. However, I don't think it should be there. ISO value is not an exposure parameter like aperture and shutter speed, as it does not control the amount of light reaching the sensor. It controls the way the sensor handles the light. It is a secondary control which should not have the same prominence as the primary ones. Maybe that is the reason why Leica made it lock-down. For the way I use the camera, aperture is primarily a depth of field control, leaving SS and ISO for controlling the 'exposure'. Yes I know ISO is merely a volume control, but it does affect the output. One thing further, I like a SS of 1/500 or higher, therefore ISO is an important 'exposure' control. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tsleica Posted January 23, 2017 Share #25 Posted January 23, 2017 Hold on a min..didn't you guys know...Leica is developing a special film module...and that iso dial..is intended to double as a rewind crank...I thought you guys knew that...lol... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 23, 2017 Share #26 Posted January 23, 2017 I agree with Jaap that ISO is secondary parameter and not primary. Let me explain. When I was shooting with M9, my ISO was clamped to 640 for obvious reasons and I was forced to shoot with adjusting aperture and shutterspeed (and taking help of tripod when shutterspeed went well down). Then I switched to M240 and decided to "take advantage of high ISO". In the beginning I shot scenes in indoor light with ISO set to 3200. M9: f/2, 1/30sec, ISO 640 M240: f/2, 1/120, ISO 3200 (ISO fixed at 3200 for indoor shots). Little bit more exposure than M9 but ok for making a case. Guess which pictures looked better. I soon learned not to rely on ISO as primary parameter. First increase aperture and shutterspeed as much as you can while keeping ISO minimum. (Note that auto ISO tries to do something similar but it is driven by the minimum shutterspeed, which has to be specified by you first, making it a driving parameter.) Let us all now repeat after me... aperture and shutterspeed first and ISO last. Update: I should add before someone jumps on me that the decision criteria for f and t stops are not only the (less) grain, but artistic as well (DOF, freeze motion) etc. But still, one has to think of f and t first. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bocaburger Posted January 23, 2017 Share #27 Posted January 23, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Again, having not handled the M10 I have some questions: I know for someone like me who shoots quite a bit in jpeg format, in-camera ISO setting is very important. However I was under the impression the majority of people here shoot DNG, and that pushing in post gets better results than turning up the gain on the camera. Not true? And for those who use the ISO manually a lot, is having ISO only in full stops not a step backwards? Or does the M10 also have a menu function for setting ISO incrementally? Finally, is ISO displayed in the viewfinder? Otherwise isn't the dial more difficult to see in very low light, which is precisely where one would think most people would be tinkering with it a lot? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 23, 2017 Share #28 Posted January 23, 2017 Let us all now repeat after me... aperture and shutterspeed first and ISO last. Precisely why having the control readily available is a benefit. In order to obtain a desired f-stop and shutter speed combo, you sometimes need to adjust the ISO to allow this. Nobody is suggesting that the ISO is the primary exposure control. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
uhoh7 Posted January 23, 2017 Share #29 Posted January 23, 2017 It's the location I don't like. Right on the corner? Seriously? Could they have chosen a spot more likely for impact? Next, I understand the need to lock it. I wish I could lock my shutter wheel on M9. But this lock is clumsy. The Fuji XT-2, of which I'm not enamored, does have a nice iso lock which can be in or out, so you can easily adjust it blind. All that said, in many situations the dial will be a nice added feature, and it would certainly not stop me from getting a M10. I would probably like it till I wrecked it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fotofool Posted January 23, 2017 Share #30 Posted January 23, 2017 ISO value is not an exposure parameter like aperture and shutter speed, as it does not control the amount of light reaching the sensor. Jaap, in my several years of reading this forum and enjoying your impressive expertise this is the first time I can remember strongly disagreeing with you. (And that is surprising since I disagree with most people, on most subjects, most of the time!) With that said, ISO is *the* exposure value *because* it controls the way the sensor reacts to light. Shutter speed controls motion blur Aperature controls DoF ISO (gain) controls exposure After all, if ISO does not control exposure, what does it control? During my brief face-to-face time two years ago with a Leica executive I made one point... on my Canon I can (and often do) specify my desired motion blur, DoF and exposure easily without taking my eye away from the viewfinder. I release the shutter with my middle finger so my index finger is free to rest on the ISO button. With my M240 I often feel the need to compromise motion blur or DoF to get an acceptable exposure because I lack the time to fumble with the ISO control -- resulting in some blurry shots. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
digitalfx Posted January 23, 2017 Share #31 Posted January 23, 2017 It's the location I don't like. Right on the corner? Seriously? Could they have chosen a spot more likely for impact? Impact?? It literally sticks up 1/4" when pulled up...where would you want it? Personally I find it in the perfect spot...its easy to adjust while shooting, and its not in the way. Its not like there are tons of options. The lens is the most likely candidate for impact, not the ISO knob. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ko.Fe. Posted January 23, 2017 Share #32 Posted January 23, 2017 M10 is as good as film M if you want it in traditional and protecting half-case without cutouts on the back. Personally, I have to skip M6-M7 and M-D is same problem. The ISO DIAL is just where camera comes in contact with my body and in summer it leaves wet spot... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
snooper Posted January 23, 2017 Share #33 Posted January 23, 2017 Shutter speed controls motion blur Aperature controls DoF ISO (gain) controls exposure After all, if ISO does not control exposure, what does it control? Can t agree. - Shutter is only linked to time, and motion blur is a side effect of hand held slow speed... - Aperture is the quantity of light. DoF is also a side effect. F:2 on a 90mm will send the film the same amount of light than F:2 on a 21mm, but the DoF is radically different. DoF is linked to focal length... - Setting different ISO is like changing the sensor (or the film) at each different setting. Like having a different camera each time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted January 23, 2017 Share #34 Posted January 23, 2017 However, I don't think it should be there. ISO value is not an exposure parameter like aperture and shutter speed, as it does not control the amount of light reaching the sensor. It controls the way the sensor handles the light. It is a secondary control which should not have the same prominence as the primary ones. The same way changing film is just a secondary control?? Of course ISO is a primary control. Leica sensors aren't completely ISO-less. Adding gain to the sensor is something that can't always be completely replicated in post. It's not whether it affects what hits the sensor that counts. It's the final file written to the card that counts. ISO affects that greatly. Some of us actually like to get our exposures correct in camera rather than having to push the exposure in post. Some of us shoot in variable conditions and need to make changes to ISO on the fly. Some of us would like to be able to see our ISO without having to turn the camera on and press a button. Some of us have a use for correctly exposed jpeg files on occasion. Hiding the ISO control makes all of these things harder in a shooting environment. Having now used an M10, I don't think it's a perfect implementation but I like it better than I thought I would. And I'm very pleased it's there as the hidden ISO on previous M's was a PITA. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted January 23, 2017 Share #35 Posted January 23, 2017 Can t agree. - Shutter is only linked to time, and motion blur is a side effect of hand held slow speed... - Aperture is the quantity of light. DoF is also a side effect. F:2 on a 90mm will send the film the same amount of light than F:2 on a 21mm, but the DoF is radically different. DoF is linked to focal length... - Setting different ISO is like changing the sensor (or the film) at each different setting. Like having a different camera each time. Umm. No. All three affect exposure. Aperture is the size of the pipe. Shutter speed is the time the tap is open. So the total quantity of light reaching the sensor or film is dependant on both speed and aperture. Aperture, shutter and ISO all affect exposure. Aperture also affects DOF. Shutter also affects blur. ISO also affects noise. That's what we balance we play with every time we push the big button. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted January 23, 2017 Share #36 Posted January 23, 2017 After all, if ISO does not control exposure, what does it control? Exposure is the amount of light falling onto the sensor, i.e. aperture and shutter speed. ISO setting is the amplificatition of the signal out of the sensor by the camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 23, 2017 Share #37 Posted January 23, 2017 For me ISO is clearly a very important exposure factor. I like to chose f-stop depending on the DOF I want, and not dictated by the amount of light available. I would like to choose exp time in a way I can make sure if I get or to avoid motion blur, depending on my goal for the image. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 23, 2017 Share #38 Posted January 23, 2017 I was just writing my response and Jaap's above post came. I can now add to that. The following two exposures are not exactly same if you want the cleanest file. f/2, 1/30, ISO 200 f/2, 1/500, ISO 3200 Controlling exposure by ISO means sacrificing image quality. The other light controls (f and t) do not sacrifice image quality. It is that simple. Why would you compensate for f and t with ISO? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmahto Posted January 23, 2017 Share #39 Posted January 23, 2017 For me ISO is clearly a very important exposure factor. I like to chose f-stop depending on the DOF I want, and not dictated by the amount of light available. I would like to choose exp time in a way I can make sure if I get or to avoid motion blur, depending on my goal for the image. Exactly.... you chose f and t stop before choosing ISO. Which makes ISO a secondary parameter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanGeist Posted January 23, 2017 Share #40 Posted January 23, 2017 - Setting different ISO is like changing the sensor (or the film) at each different setting. Like having a different camera each time. No, it's not. You just boost the signal the sensor captures as you go up in sensitivity. It's a different story with film, yes. A pulled FP4+ looks and behaves completly different than a pushed HP5+. But digital is a linear signal, you just add noise and lose dynamic range as you crank up the gain. I don't see a reason not to use auto Iso. Not just for convenience, but to keep the gain as low as possible. I shoot a lot of film, but in terms of digital photography I see the typical Iso steps of 100, 400, 1600 etc. more or less than relicts from the film age. They are even called »Iso equivalent« because the sensor works so differently then film. When I look at the Exif data of the pictures of my phone, I often see Iso 83, Iso 113 and numbers like that. Maybe this is the better way of understanding and using Iso in a digital enviroment. Keep it as low as possible and don't mind things we embraced in the older days. Just my two cents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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