Lax Jought Posted February 25, 2017 Share #101 Posted February 25, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Still, I have been analyzing my sense of disappointment with the M 10. It is not the camera, which clearly is a superior product which surely will find many enthusiastic buyers. I've always only looked to the M as a stills photography-only camera, and in the context of the Leica brand, the M10 is a superior camera. If the M240 had had superior video function, I would say the M10 is a backwards step (or as discussed earlier, if Leica intends to split the M line into a video/no-video line, that's perfectly fine). But since the video in the M240 was poorly executed, the M10 appears to me to be a step forward. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 25, 2017 Posted February 25, 2017 Hi Lax Jought, Take a look here So how long before video capture functionality arrives?. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
erl Posted February 25, 2017 Share #102 Posted February 25, 2017 I am amazed at the number of commenters who are bemoaning that Leica don't make a camera for 'them'!. Leica make cameras for what they perceive as their market. I am their market. Their cameras fit my needs, pretty closely. I use a Sony A7S with the same lens set as my Leica M's to complement my current M9, and the M10 I have ordered and already paid for. The Sony does video, but I hate video anyway, but it gives me good macro, and the Leicas cover everything else for me. I suppose my professional experience has taught me to select the appropriate tools for my work, and I have. I have never considered asking my 'tool makers' to adjust their product to suit me. (Disclosure: I did once ask Hasselblad to include something in their cameras, and they did!). Summary: Assess you work, choose the most suitable tool and get on with it. The result is up to you. A poor workman blames ......... you know the rest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lax Jought Posted February 25, 2017 Share #103 Posted February 25, 2017 I am amazed at the number of commenters who are bemoaning that Leica don't make a camera for 'them'!. Leica make cameras for what they perceive as their market. I am their market. Their cameras fit my needs, pretty closely. Hi Erl, it's not so much that the commenters are complaining about a camera made for them. I've mentioned a number of times in this thread that the issue is those commenters who insist that Leica excludes everyone and cater only to the purists. So for example, if Leica wants to introduce a second line of M models that have video and more DSLR-like functions, while maintaining a separate flagship M line that focuses only on pure rangefinder still photography, that is fine. But the purists are so protective of their camera that they're insisting that Leica doesn't pollute any and all M models with anything other than pure RF photography like how it used to be during the film era. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
david strachan Posted February 25, 2017 Share #104 Posted February 25, 2017 Well you are exactly right Erl. Choose the camera which suits the situation. I have got my live view, and full frame as a bonus, with the M-P. It's enough for now...and feel satiated with cameras...I have more than several... regards... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 25, 2017 Share #105 Posted February 25, 2017 Well you are exactly right Erl. Choose the camera which suits the situation. I have got my live view, and full frame as a bonus, with the M-P. It's enough for now...and feel satiated with cameras...I have more than several... regards... Which is exactly what I am doing. I've always only looked to the M as a stills photography-only camera, and in the context of the Leica brand, the M10 is a superior camera. If the M240 had had superior video function, I would say the M10 is a backwards step (or as discussed earlier, if Leica intends to split the M line into a video/no-video line, that's perfectly fine). But since the video in the M240 was poorly executed, the M10 appears to me to be a step forward. But they could have improved the video in the next model - as a step forward. Additonally to other refinements Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted February 25, 2017 Share #106 Posted February 25, 2017 ... But they could have improved the video in the next model - as a step forward. Additonally to other refinements They still did ... - Improve Video - Added AF and other refinements like 4M EVF And finally they called it Leica SL... As a logical step they now positioned the "M" System back to the roots of a Leica Rangefinder camera Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 25, 2017 Share #107 Posted February 25, 2017 Advertisement (gone after registration) Sorry, the SL is in the tradition of the R line, not an M. Leica even emphasized this by echoing the Leicaflex design. What are the roots of the M then? My first serious use was a winterized M3 in Lapland in January decades ago, my first Safari camera an M4 with Visoflex and 400/6.8 Telyt-V. Those are my roots... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lax Jought Posted February 25, 2017 Share #108 Posted February 25, 2017 But they could have improved the video in the next model - as a step forward. Additonally to other refinements This is true. But in an earlier post in this thread, I was walking through my own thought process and realised that Leica would never pour resources into video for the M line when they've invested in the SL line. It's the purists who insist that Leica does not pollute the M line with innovation. For me, I would've loved to have a decent video function on an M because that means that I will be able to do stills and video in one single lens ecosystem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted February 25, 2017 Share #109 Posted February 25, 2017 [...] It's the purists who insist that Leica does not pollute the M line with innovation. [...] Sure but same purists did resist to keep the small size of LTM bodies. And the same resisted to implement AE as well. They did not prevent Leica from launching the M3 and the M7 though. It is a matter of will in the first place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted February 25, 2017 Share #110 Posted February 25, 2017 But you needed an R to go with it. And a Leicina. That was changed with the M240, just one body and a few lenses is enough. Leica could have chosen to make the camera more robust, add a really good EVF, add a flash interface, improve the video, weatherseal the Summarit lens series (the present "upgrade" was neither here nor there), introduce a compact EVF-only Apo-Telyt 200 M, etc. and turn the M system into something that any correspondent or travel photographer would aspire to. The M 10 is aimed at light street and family use by the discerning affectionado, a bit of fine art and wedding maybe, with a strong retro flavour. Leica, like any company, fits its new products into the ecosystem of its other products (and those of competitors) to maximise sales. The M240 was launched into a space where it had no other significant internal competitor - I guess the Q, T and possibly the SL were on the horizon, but who knew how they would perform (http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/leica-is-healthy-but-theres.html)? So it made sense to make the M240's functional footprint as broad as possible. Leica has often tried to extend the M functionality in ways that work, but are really well behind other systems (e.g. the mechanical visoflex, which always made me smile). With a successful SL system, Leica has nudged the M a bit in the opposite direction, dropping things it can't do well to its own satidfaction; it will therefore lose some customers and gain others. So be it. I don't see this as heading into a retro niche, just dropping some functionality/characteristics in order to gain others. I write this as one who has no plans to buy the M10 because I don't see it as sufficiently different from the M240, and because I'm not convinced they have done all they could even within their own chosen constraints: continued EVF blackout (yes, I know it's much less, but it's not SL speed - I can live with the resolution), impossibility of using flash and EVF, no silent shutter throughout the speed range. If Leica does eventually produce an M-sized body with L mount and built in EVF (and no RF) I will sit up and take notice (while my SL looks on nervously), but I can live with the M240 for the moment. I have just used the M240 intensively over a 10 day holiday trip, including using a 21mm with the EVF, and it has not made me twitch towards the M10 in any respect except for a desire for better high ISO performance and a more robust RF (the RF patch no longer coincides at infinity). Edit: I would add to my list of M240 deficiencies that I think they could have sorted in the M10 without compromise: inability to preset shutter speed longer than 8 secs (e.g. through the menu); better management of LENR; display of shutter speed in the OVF. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lax Jought Posted February 25, 2017 Share #111 Posted February 25, 2017 (the RF patch no longer coincides at infinity). Could this be a calibration issue? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lax Jought Posted February 25, 2017 Share #112 Posted February 25, 2017 Sure but same purists did resist to keep the small size of LTM bodies. And the same resisted to implement AE as well. They did not prevent Leica from launching the M3 and the M7 though. It is a matter of will in the first place. I have to admit, I don't know much about this. I grew up in the film era and used film cameras when I was young, but I did not fall into photography proper until I was much older when it was well into the digital age. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted February 25, 2017 Share #113 Posted February 25, 2017 Could this be a calibration issue? I'm sure it is. I need to check it's the body and not several lenses (I'm sure it is) then it will go back for calibration (second time in three years, but I can live with that). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlashGordonPhotography Posted February 25, 2017 Share #114 Posted February 25, 2017 I'm sure it is. I need to check it's the body and not several lenses (I'm sure it is) then it will go back for calibration (second time in three years, but I can live with that). If infinity is out you're better off investing two dollars and 30 minutes in a 2mm allen key. Gordon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lax Jought Posted February 25, 2017 Share #115 Posted February 25, 2017 If infinity is out you're better off investing two dollars and 30 minutes in a 2mm allen key. Gordon You'd have to add about 4 hours to that total if it was me trying to fumble my way through it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted February 25, 2017 Share #116 Posted February 25, 2017 If infinity is out you're better off investing two dollars and 30 minutes in a 2mm allen key. Gordon Yes, so I've been told, so I've read! Perhaps I'll try it. Edit What were Leica thinking of with the M10? An extra menu item, a stepper motor on the RF cam follower, and you could have calibrated it yourself without keyhole surgery Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Mandeville Posted February 25, 2017 Share #117 Posted February 25, 2017 Hi Erl, it's not so much that the commenters are complaining about a camera made for them. I've mentioned a number of times in this thread that the issue is those commenters who insist that Leica excludes everyone and cater only to the purists. So for example, if Leica wants to introduce a second line of M models that have video and more DSLR-like functions, while maintaining a separate flagship M line that focuses only on pure rangefinder still photography, that is fine. But the purists are so protective of their camera that they're insisting that Leica doesn't pollute any and all M models with anything other than pure RF photography like how it used to be during the film era. Which purists are you referring to, specifically? I haven't noticed any posts opposed to Leica making an M variant that includes video. We simply want a digital rangefinder camera available (like the M10) that is designed solely with the needs of still photographers in mind. The M10 is Leica's best implementation of this concept to date, and the purists get their nose bent out of shape when a few start complaining about this and insist that Leica can't survive as a company if they don't add video back to it (a rather ludicrous proposition on its face). Has anyone actually suggested, as you imply, that Leica shouldn't make a M variant with video? I know that I have stated that there may not be enough of a market to make such a camera a viable option. And others have mentioned the technical difficulties of producing such a camera with good enough video capability to justify it. But that is a far cry from insisting that they don't produce such a camera. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sumolux Posted February 25, 2017 Share #118 Posted February 25, 2017 Yes, let's implement video in every M camera.... Then, we are one step away from a bi-directional tilting screen, and a dozen other features when the next wave of complaints come online. Movie mode in a rangefinder will always be nothing more than a compromised functionality...Exactly like an expensive 4-wheel drive Audi, but with low racing tires and a ground clearance of under 6 inches. Personally, for the SL and its lens assortment, video just makes more sense to me The 'M' is meant, at least in my view, to be the best kind of (still) camera in its class/type. A lean, mean photographic machine is much more interesting to me in this age of 'Swiss knife' flexibility. (P.S. If Leica ever were to make a high quality video camera for 'regular' users, I think it could become very popular.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp995 Posted February 25, 2017 Share #119 Posted February 25, 2017 Sorry, the SL is in the tradition of the R line, not an M. Leica even emphasized this by echoing the Leicaflex design. What are the roots of the M then? My first serious use was a winterized M3 in Lapland in January decades ago, my first Safari camera an M4 with Visoflex and 400/6.8 Telyt-V. Those are my roots... Maybe bad luck for you as YOUR roots might not the be same as the roots of Leica and other's. I think with the M10 they listend to their customers an removed the crappy toystuff which is no longer needed, sind the SL is available. And: SL has nothing to do with a Leica R! Except yuo can tell me, how you connect M-Lenses to R-Mount with fill use... So Leica has an option for M-Lens users AND video freaks = SL Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lax Jought Posted February 25, 2017 Share #120 Posted February 25, 2017 Which purists are you referring to, specifically? There's been a few in this thread already..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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