M8 in the shopping cart: let's talk accessories . . . and financing

[timothy]

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Timothy,

 

Anything wrong with film? Yes, I know film costs, but there's still plenty of places to rent/borrow darkrooms to do the souping yourself, paper is actually cheaper than inkjet paper, and you'll learn a lot. [. . .] Pay for film AS you get the jobs. Build a rep. And then get into a high end digital system. You have to keep in mind that to make digital really work for you, it's neccesary to also have a good computer, good monitor with calibrater, printer, and all the requisite software. That can add up really quick. [. . .] I think the money would be better spent on the risk of getting to the pictures vs what you actually take them with. Go travel. [. . .]

 

Charles, these are all very good points. I agree with Ken that the statement, "I think the money would be better spent on the risk of getting to the pictures" should be framed. None of the advice to buy a cheaper DSLR system has persuaded me, but your why-not-film comments have me reconsidering. Also, there is the practical matter that the Bill Me Later option is out.

 

Yes, I feel I can get the shots on film. Yes, I feel I have what it takes. Yes, it would be awesome to go on an adventure to test whether I have what it takes. That said, I'll either have to increase my credit line and use it to cover travel expenses, or I'll need to implement creative fund raising ideas.

 

Do you think putting up a website with a few of my photos, a travel map showing where I want to go, and Paypal donation box would be a good idea?

 

Additionally/alternatively, what do you think about pioneering a new financing model for the globe-trotting (or just North-American-trotting) photographer where I pre-sell limited edition prints? That would look something like the sports draft system where someone gets first draft choice, second, and so on. I appreciate feedback from you and everyone else.

 

Cheers,

 

Timothy

 

P.S. So, I'm pointing this discussion in a new direction and plan to check in more regularly over the weekend to keep it flowing.

 

P.P.S. Your photo book proves that there is nothing wrong with film in terms of aesthetics (where I think it still holds the advantage) and getting the shot. Of course, there is workflow and other areas where digital is clearly the winner.

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[photophile]

I am also on the cusp.. but keep reminding myself that almost ALL the great iconic photographs have been made on film. I can afford one .. and have not yet convinced myself that I should. A D200 has certainly been very good so far at 1/4 of the price. I certainly would not put myself in hock just starting out to get this tool when others may be almost as good technically...but far better for you! be reasonable and good luck.

[cwf]

I must agree that borrowing, particularly at high rates, make little sense here (or anywhere) and may well turn out to be a major mistake.

 

My suggestion: sit tight at least a month and come up with options. Thorough and imaginative analysis may provide a pleasant surprise and keep one out of financial quicksand.

 

One camera body and one lens is enough to get going. Bought for cash will provide piece of mind and flexibility going forward.

 

Sorry to be a downer.

[charlesphoto99]

Hi Timothy,

 

You should have a website of some sort no matter what. There's plenty of free or low cost options (Flickr) or templates (mine is fluid galleries - the best $500 I've spent). It's a great way to show your work.

 

As for pioneering the print sale to finance travel, that's been done quite a bit, at least it was by a couple of travel photog friends of mine back in the 80s/90s. That's a good idea, but it might be a bit like putting the cart before the horse if you don't have a track record. Of course it all depends on just how many prints Mom needs for the living room! Of course I don't know you or your work or who you know so it may work for you.

 

And I wasn't implying that one needed to travel per se - as you can see in my case I spent money on film to go down and shoot bands at the local clubs - who then just happened to become world famous. Not sure what you really want to do - and honestly if its bands the M8 might not be the best tool for you. I still advise a Nikon FM/FE or F3HP. Total tanks you can take anywhere, cheap and easy to repair, and manual focus lenses available cheaply on ebay, etc. Easy to rent lenses if you have a cedit card. And Nikon makes some great lenses. The 28mm f2 is stellar and can be had used for about $300. It's great rock and roll gear and the old stuff looks cool. Did me good.

 

90% of my rock work was shot with Nikons and tri-x. Learn to shoot film and make darkroom prints - it's fundamental in my opinion. Develop film in your kitchen - it's a rite of passage.

 

And go hang out over at Lightstalkers.org. You'll find lots of pros there that shoot film. And between you and me, the M8 is something I really couldn't afford but went into debt anyway. But I also have a half dozen other cameras and have been taking photos for 25 years. So work up to it. There's a lot of folks on this site that can drop bucks on this lens or that or second and third bodies and not sweat it. They also compare sports cars. I'm sweating it. But I also already owned a half dozen sweet lenses I picked up used years before the M8 craze for very little so I'm only out the body (and I sold all my darkroom gear). I also have all my computer gear in order. But really any old Nikon will do the trick.

 

It's about talent not the gear. And at your age, you'll feel a lot more cavalier and free with a $400 Nikon than $8000 worth of Leica gear around your neck. I'd much rather have somebody spill a beer on my Nikon (or M6) than my M8.

[lars_bergquist]

I am also on the cusp.. but keep reminding myself that almost ALL the great iconic photographs have been made on film....

 

Yes, and before 1839, all the great iconic pictures were done with brushes and oils.

 

I do own an old but working film SLR system, and an M4-P. Still I must say that since I took delivery of my M8 I have not exposed one single frame of film.

 

After decades with lead type-setting, typewriters and flat-bed presses I switched to digital production when the time came, and I think one of the reasons why the transition was so easy was that I thoroughly knew the job that had to be done – for it was still the same job. Similarly, after half a century in the wet darkroom I have gone digital, and I think that background was a good preparation. But in neither case have I looked back. The great iconic pictures of the twenty-first century (if any) will be made digitally.

 

The old man from the Age B.C. (Before Computers)

[bab]

If you have the talent or the ability to promote your work, then sell it, then get the cash and buy all the lighting equipment and cameras you want and never look back. But is it a business decision or a want ?

 

If you can sell some work or get a deposit on a shoot take the money and run to B&H.

 

Best of luck do whats in you heart, you only live once, day by day.

 

Barry

[wparsonsgisnet]

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I read in PDN that the R-D1 will be dropped by Epson....

 

I suppose one could say that Leica dropped the M3, M2, M4x, M5 (really fast), and M6x.

 

One way to finance an M8 is to drive a 15-year old car (read: self). Such a vehicle is not serviced by the manufacturer (dealer) or course. Sort of like sending my M4 for a CLA; it didn't go to Leica.

 

I do take Philip's caution to heart because I am sitting with a Minolta scanner and wondering if a shoe will drop.

 

Tim, not to intrude, but if you have few obligations, what better time to go for the stars.

[timothy]

Timothy,

 

Assist a few professionals to get an idea of what you are getting yourself into. The jobs and the customers and preferrably work with a professional who already have an M8

 

alex

 

Although that's a good suggestion, one problem is my location and lack of access to professionals who work with Leica or Hasselblad and Phase One. Here in Winnipeg, MB, Canada, first-rate photography gear must be non-existent. More importantly, first-rate photography is non-existent.

 

At the Manitoba Marathon, I keenly observed the press photographers. They did more standing than anything. They're cameras were ready but not their minds. So many times I saw the shot, then seconds later they saw the shot only to fire off a few frames too late for the best expressions and gestures. I thought, "Why aren't they constantly moving around?" and "Why are they so hesitant and missing the decisive moments." At some point, I asked one of the press photographers, "Now, that the top finishers are done, what story do you look for?" I didn't even hear his mumbled one-liner response as he walked away from me.

 

As for other Winnipeg photographers, I've found a few competent ones. After messaging and then meeting him, I know Dan Kern personally, and know of Tobias Beharrell and Gerry Kopelow.

 

Beharrell has done some reputable work for the Royal Winnipeg Ballet, but look at his insipid people pictures. Why does he post them? Does he really want to get hired again to produce kitsch like this?

 

Here's a interesting statement that Beharrell makes suggesting that Winnipeg has a very limited photo market: "It seems most of my work comes either from out-of province, the United States or overseas anyways. Technology is a wonderful tool for the arts. Most of the local work I do is volunteered."

 

The implication is that I, too, have to reach an international audience to be successful. I guess my forthcoming website is my only shot at that, eh?

 

I'm seriously thinking about jettisoning Winnipeg, and hitchhiking to New York.

 

Kopelow, the other competent photographer, has published three books: How to Photograph Buildings and Interiors; The Focal Handbook of Commercial Photography; Photography and the Performing Arts. He seems to have a wealth of experience but offers less inspiration. To borrow that stupid phrase that's ubiquitous on the various photo forums, his pictures "do nothing for me" (smart alec, I am it appears slightly less stupid if I put quotation marks around the phrase and reference it as a photo culture phenomenon).

 

So, do I stick it out here, quitting my commoditized coffee drive-thru job to assist a competent Winnipeg photographer, or do I venture to New York (or somewhere else) in search of greatness? In an ideal world, I would assist someone taking fashion photography to the streets or something great like that. Or, I'd do my own thing and become the next William Klein.

 

What's holding me back? My upbringing? My living paycheck to paycheck? My photo workflow? (With 31 rolls of exposed Tri-X to develop, I have 2469 rolls to go before catching up with Garry Winogrand). My own fears.

[timothy]

Wow, reading what I just wrote above, I realize I come off as an immature, arrogant egotist who overreaches himself. Although the entire post sounds off key, I can't bring myself to delete/edit it. Yes, it's immature, but it's also raw, uncensored, and, I feel, truthful. Deciding by that criteria, I'll let it stand as it is.

[bbodine9]

Timothy take a look at the work done by Jono Slack in this forum and on dpreview. Jono has used various equipment from Kodak, Nikon, Olympus and Leica to name a few and in my opinion his photos are always right on target. The secret ? It is his skill as a photographer not the brand name of the camera he is using. Check out his website to see what I mean and email him directly, a great guy to converse with and help you with your ambitions. Good Luck !

 

Bruce Bodine

Olympus E-1 ( Also a very nice camera, ask Jono )

[charlesphoto99]

Wow, reading what I just wrote above, I realize I come off as an immature, arrogant egotist who overreaches himself. Although the entire post sounds off key, I can't bring myself to delete/edit it. Yes, it's immature, but it's also raw, uncensored, and, I feel, truthful. Deciding by that criteria, I'll let it stand as it is.

 

Hi Timothy,

 

No, what you wrote was articulate, honest and one of the best things I've read on here.

Yeah, sounds like you might need to eventually "get out of Dodge."

 

Take care,

 

Charles