timothy Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share #41 Posted June 18, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) i'm psychologically ready to order a porsche 911. Thanks Tim, I disagree with you; nevertheless, I found your comment funny as hell (you would get modded "Score:5, Funny" on Slashdot). I *do* recognize the positive role of consumer in making dreams come true. It's the example of the film student who financed his first picture on ten credit cards, and then went on to become a Hollywood legend. (There are a few of those, I think.) Great example, Sol. I hadn't read it until after leaving my previous post. Obviously, I was thinking along the same lines. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted June 18, 2007 Posted June 18, 2007 Hi timothy, Take a look here M8 in the shopping cart: let's talk accessories . . . and financing. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Joe Mondello Posted June 18, 2007 Share #42 Posted June 18, 2007 Ken, "Bill Me Later" agrees with you. The bank declined my transaction. No Leica M8 for now. So, Timothy, look around for a used Epson R-D1. It's a wonderful camera and makes great images. All the other advice regarding lenses is still apt although the crop factor moves from 1.3 to 1.5 I think it's fantastic that you went to Calcutta and worked on that film! Outstanding! In fact it makes a big difference in how I (for one) view your wanting an M8. About those stories of a half dozen folks maxxing out their CCs and making a hit movie, there have to be ten thousand more that did the same thing and simply went bankrupt. But I don't think EITHER fact is in itself a reason to buy or not to buy. My Dad told me that when he opened his business in 1957 the fact that he had rented an apartment for it and hired an artist were incredibly motivating to him. He liked putting himself on the line and I don't think it is necessarily foolish one bit. Depending on the person it could be exactly what you need to do! If you feel that this is the right tool for you -- and you can swing it -- go for it. What I said in my previous post was "take a breath" and be sure your decision isn't just "GAS." ;-) Cos I know about GAS, after all I am an old fart -- even if only by right of birth (1950)! Oh, and BTW, Timothy, I really like your images. Forgot to mention that earlier. Check the RFF for leads on a used R-D1 -- or even a new one through Robert White in the UK. http://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=48 HTH Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted June 18, 2007 Share #43 Posted June 18, 2007 Timothy,My opinion, for what it's worth: A young person with limited financial resources or prospects needlessly taking on $6,000+ of unsecured, high-rate debt is just plain 20-something stupid. Really stupid. You're being overcome by fetishism. There are many more reasonably-priced, and more versatile, cameras available today. The images you showed above, presumably that you enjoy or have created, are mainly Photoshop products, anyway. Get a grip on yourself. Walk away from the whole matter for a couple of weeks. Then see if you're still obsessed with this notion. BTW, yes, I do have an M8. But I'm probably older than your parents and have resources sufficient to make such a purchase easily. But I also worked many years to accumulate those resources. Ken, I think you are patronizing Tim and calling his choices "stupid" is (in my mind) not helpful at all (even if your advice is well-intended). Each person makes choices as to what is and is not worth spending money on (including interest money). It's not for person A to tell person B what is and is not appropriate, etc. I, personally, no longer buy any vehicle that would require financing but that's just *my* set of priorities. I wouldn't begin to tell everyone else to value what I do, plan as I do, etc. Comments about "fetishism, etc." are also uncalled for. We're in no position to read other people's minds, assign their motivations, etc. Tim, You might want to think through your lens choices a bit further but that depends on your needs, taste, etc. I'm also one who has mixed feelings about the CV 40 on the M8 but that's me, perhaps not you. I do think that going with CV lenses is an intelligent way to cut costs. Edit: Just saw the post where you were denied financing for this. If you really want a DRF for your work, consider an R-D1. And, of course, there are lots of DSLRs to choose from. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larry Posted June 18, 2007 Share #44 Posted June 18, 2007 The job of an "old fart" like myself, is to counsel against impulsiveness while secretly wishing to relive the days when I could throw caution to the wind. In the end, it’s all about keeping your balance (with the emphasis on YOUR). Larry Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timothy Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share #45 Posted June 18, 2007 The images you showed above, presumably that you enjoy or have created, are mainly Photoshop products, anyway. Yes, I made all these photos. The black and white one is mainly a product of the camera and high ISO 35mm film. I made the photo in an alley after conversing with the person for a few minutes. The photo won honorable mention at the second-annual Silver Print Competition held at the Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California. Silver Conference and Print Competition for B&W Photography - - PopPhotoJanuary 2007 Get a grip on yourself. Walk away from the whole matter for a couple of weeks. Then see if you're still obsessed with this notion. I've been obsessed with this notion since I registered on the forum. I also subscribed to Reid Reviews to learn as much as possible about the M8. Just recently, I tried out a friend of a friend's Nikon D200 and really dislike all the automation. That didn't stop me snapping scores of pictures and showing her how to walk right up to people to snap their pictures in downtown Toronto, where I was visiting for the North By Northeast music festival (offline social networking). The auto-focus or my use of the auto-focus was messing up far too often. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timothy Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share #46 Posted June 18, 2007 I think it's fantastic that you went to Calcutta and worked on that film! Outstanding! In fact it makes a big difference in how I (for one) view your wanting an M8. There must have been an ambiguity in my statement. In fact, I did not go to Calcutta and work on that film. Rather, I used Born Into Brothels as an example of how other young people are taking risk. All the same, thank you, Joe! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timothy Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share #47 Posted June 18, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Tim, You might want to think through your lens choices a bit further but that depends on your needs, taste, etc. I'm also one who has mixed feelings about the CV 40 on the M8 but that's me, perhaps not you. I do think that going with CV lenses is an intelligent way to cut costs. Edit: Just saw the post where you were denied financing for this. If you really want a DRF for your work, consider an R-D1. And, of course, there are lots of DSLRs to choose from. Cheers, Sean Thank you, Sean. It looks like I have time now to reconsider my lens selection and look for vintage Leica lenses in addition to CV lenses. I prefer to use a DRF but may end up purchasing a Canon DSLR. Question: Do you think the R-D1 will meet most professional needs? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shootist Posted June 18, 2007 Share #48 Posted June 18, 2007 Don't listen to anyone, not even me. Listen to your hart. If you have the cash or the credit, and can pay the credit off in a relatively short time, buy what you want and like. It's as simple as that. Young, Old doesn't matter. Life is to short to worry about the cost of something you want and that can bring you great joy for years to come. Just my $0.02 PS: I find the cost of the M8, even 2 of them, a much better investment then the ring I bought for someone else 30 years ago. I don't have that ring now and the person that owns it has not spoken to me in 22 years. But I do have a M3. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Mondello Posted June 18, 2007 Share #49 Posted June 18, 2007 Thank you, Sean. It looks like I have time now to reconsider my lens selection and look for vintage Leica lenses in addition to CV lenses. I prefer to use a DRF but may end up purchasing a Canon DSLR. Question: Do you think the R-D1 will meet most professional needs? I'm not Sean, but he did use the R-D1 for about two years for his professional work IIRC and only the M8 has supplanted it. The R-D1's 6MP files are really quite fine IMO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timothy Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share #50 Posted June 18, 2007 I find the cost of the M8, even 2 of them, a much better investment then the ring I bought for someone else 30 years ago. I don't have that ring now and the person that owns it has not spoken to me in 22 years. But I do have a M3. Does that make any one else feel all warm and fuzzy? Thanks Ed! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timothy Posted June 18, 2007 Author Share #51 Posted June 18, 2007 I'm not Sean, but he did use the R-D1 for about two years for his professional work IIRC and only the M8 has supplanted it. The R-D1's 6MP files are really quite fine IMO. From RFF, I gather that the R-D1 with firmware update is a better choice than the newer R-D1s since it is more difficult to adjust the rangefinder mechanism of the latter. Thanks for the link, Joe. I'll give consideration to the R-D1. I have an M8 fund myself. Philip, perhaps I'll start an R-D1 fund. For the most part, though, I live paycheck to paycheck. . . . Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philinflash Posted June 18, 2007 Share #52 Posted June 18, 2007 What are you young farts talking about anyway? I don't know; I forgot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philinflash Posted June 18, 2007 Share #53 Posted June 18, 2007 ...I do have a problem being referred to as an old fart and the derogatory inference implied. ... Judging from your photograph, it certainly is inappropriate for anyone to conclude that you are an "old fart." Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sean_reid Posted June 18, 2007 Share #54 Posted June 18, 2007 Thank you, Sean. It looks like I have time now to reconsider my lens selection and look for vintage Leica lenses in addition to CV lenses. I prefer to use a DRF but may end up purchasing a Canon DSLR. Question: Do you think the R-D1 will meet most professional needs? "Most" is a key word there. It depends on what you plan to do with it. What did you have in mind? The Epson has its pros and cons like anything else but I did a lot of professional work with two R-D1s. Cheers, Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philinflash Posted June 18, 2007 Share #55 Posted June 18, 2007 ... The Epson has its pros and cons like anything else but I did a lot of professional work with two R-D1s. Cheers, Sean I read in PDN that the R-D1 will be dropped by Epson. That has obvious positive and negative implications that a potential buyer would want to consider. If true, that is a regrettable outcome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnwolf Posted June 18, 2007 Share #56 Posted June 18, 2007 Timothy, Good luck with you decision. A few inexpensive add-on options: Hong Kong 1.25x magnifier, soft release, and LCD screen protectors. Search the forum and you find info and resources on all of them. John Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_tanaka Posted June 19, 2007 Share #57 Posted June 19, 2007 Timothy; Your success with photography, either as an amateur hobbyist or a vocational participant, will never depend on your camera. Never. I can imagine your disappointment at not being able to get an M8 right now. I have certainly been down the road of becoming obsessed with getting some "thing". It is, indeed, a very common type of fetishism that eventually passes for most (mentally healthy) people. If, as Reid speculated, you found my comments rather harsh, good. Your own remarks give me the impression that you are a thoughtful, educated young man at a point in life where you're energized by creative possibilities. Nothing short of a horrific health catastrophe will limit your life possibilities more severely than having to make life decisions primarily to keep pace with debt service. That $6,000 camera kit could easily become a $20,000+ ball-and-chain after making minimum payments on the debt for a few years. The bankruptcy courts are jammed with young people who can't even remember all of the crap they bought as they dug their personal money holes one charge slip at a time. So if anything I can write can help prevent you from making such a truly bad choice I'm glad to seem an asshole to do it. Of course I realize that you're not going to pay much attention to my comments which run contra to your emotional state. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlesphoto99 Posted June 19, 2007 Share #58 Posted June 19, 2007 Timothy, Anything wrong with film? Yes, I know film costs, but there's still plenty of places to rent/borrow darkrooms to do the souping yourself, paper is actually cheaper than inkjet paper, and you'll learn a lot. Consider a used M6 for about a grand and some CV lenses. Or even a Nikon F3 (or whatever) and some of their classic lenses (a Nikon MF 50 f1.8 one of their best and most overlooked can be had for about $50). Get or rent a film scanner as well and you're good to go. Or scan your darkroom prints. You could probably put together a kick ass Nikon classic system (body, 20, 28, 35, 50, 105, and 180) for about $1300. You can always borrow or rent a D200 and use the manual lenses on them. Remember, you might need a flash as well - Vivitar 285 works great with old film cameras; still what I often use. Pay for film AS you get the jobs. Build a rep. And then get into a high end digital system. You have to keep in mind that to make digital really work for you, it's neccesary to also have a good computer, good monitor with calibrater, printer, and all the requisite software. That can add up really quick. Yes, risks can/will pay off. But for now, at your age and where you're at career wise, I think the money would be better spent on the risk of getting to the pictures vs what you actually take them with. Go travel. And if your Nikon FM2 gets ripped off you're out $175 bucks vs 5K. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ken_tanaka Posted June 19, 2007 Share #59 Posted June 19, 2007 Excellent alternative suggestion, Charles. Charles said: "Yes, risks can/will pay off. But for now, at your age and where you're at career wise, I think the money would be better spent on the risk of getting to the pictures vs what you actually take them with."Frame that! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lxlim Posted June 19, 2007 Share #60 Posted June 19, 2007 Timothy, Your passion does you credit. Many in this forum are counselling patience and prudence which are good virtues to help build a career. Debt is usually the biggest obstacle to freedom of operations in any business. You don't want to start by doing jobs you need to do because you have a debt to pay but jobs that make sense to you. Take advantage of making an application for a loan from several banks to do a quick an dirty assessment of the economic climate, as they have resources far greater than you. A rejection is as useful as an acceptance in telling your statistical chance of success. Only after you have build a consistent reputation financially and beaten the statistical odds then the banks will be more willing to back you further. Assist a few professionals to get an idea of what you are getting yourself into. The jobs and the customers and preferrably work with a professional who already have an M8 Reading online about what is ideal may not be the reality you hope for. It takes time to know a camera system or the photography business. Perhaps you could follow this route after you are familiar with the situation. Get a DSLR with a wide angle zoom and telezoom. Pick up a few 2nd hand contax zeiss lenses or other quality lenses and use adapters. Some lights. Build your craft from there and give yourself a prize when you have reach an economic milestone. For example if you have say ten times the amount needed for an M8 kit, well ... go for it reward yourself. alex Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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