Leica Q Auto ISO Question

[ChuckA]

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Hi All -

 

New to the forum & the Leica world. Old photographer however. Coming from mostly Nikon, Fuji, Ricoh.

 

I have the new Q, fw 2.0. Loving it. But I seem to get unpredictable results with Auto ISO. I tend to shoot manual aperture & shutter, letting the ISO move within my chosen range. I always select my aperture. Occasionally I will select an aperture, put shutter on 'A', but still let ISO move up or down within my range.

 

It seems no matter what I set my Q Auto ISO settings to - 1/15th & 6400 max for example, when putting the camera in 'A' shutter speed, the camera will start raising the ISO while remaining at 1/60th?

 

Should not the camera be allowing the shutter speed to drop to 1/15th before raising ISO?

 

Is not the functionality (more importantly the terminology) similar to most other manufacturers? Iv'e read some of the threads here that attempt to answer this but I haven't seen a clear explanation?

 

The result I'm looking for:

Pick an aperture, say f2.8

Put shutter dial on 'A'

Set Auto ISO to 1/15th, 6400

I'm expecting camera to keep ISO at 100 down to a shutter of 1/15th before raising ISO

 

Example of what does happen:

Pick f28

Shutter dial on 'A'

Auto ISO to 1/15th, 6400

Camera will stop dropping shutter speed at 1/60th, the ISO will move from 100 up/down to 1,000 or whatever it needs to meter.

 

I must be missing something?

 

Any suggestions greatly appreciated.

 

Many Thanks

 

 

 

 

[Bart van Hofwegen]

This is a "feature" of the Q that renders auto ISO as rather useless I think. Exposure time is extended  (= shutter speed dropped) until 1/60th. After that, ISO is increased and shutter speed remains at 1/60th. The value 1/60th is fixed and is rather arbitrary. You are right that this is different from almost every other camera. In my opinion, this is not well thought through (mildly put) and a definite wish for future firmware updates. I am afraid this will remain a wish for eternity though.

[ChuckA]

Thanks for the speedy response Bart. Got it. My view of cameras is that it's more important to understand how their functions work, perfect or not. The image quality I'm getting is clearly worth a few not-so-perfect features. Agreed that it could/should be an easy firmware adjustment - if Leica so chooses one day.

 

Many thanks.

 

Chuck

[Krusty]

Hi all,

 

i also have the same Problem on my Q and I had contact with the Leica Support in Wetzlar. Here is the whole conversation (in German) and then I will do a translation:

 

My Description of the problem... No further translation necessary as everybody who is reading this post understands the behavior:

 

 

Sehr geehrte Damen und Herren,

Ich habe mir eine Leica Q gekauft und habe eine Frage zur ISO Automatik der Kamera. Ich habe als Max. ISO 3200 und als längste Belichtungszeit 1/15 eingestellt. Im Betriebsmodus P und A hat die Kamera ein Verhalten, welches ich nicht ganz verstehe. 

Bei schlechtem Licht bleibt die Kamera bei einer Verschlusszeit von 1/60 und geht stattdessen auf einen ISO-Wert 1600 anstatt auf 1/15 und ISO 400 zu gehen. d.h. ich würde eigentlich erwarten, dass die Kamera erst dann mit dem ISO Wert nach oben geht, wenn die als Limit festgelegte, längste Belichtungszeit erreicht ist. Stattdessen ist es so, dass lieber mit dem ISO Wert nach oben gegangen wird, um eine kurze Belichtungszeit von 1/60 zu ermöglichen.

Dieses Verhalten führt aber zu einem unnötigen Rauschen in den Bildern, da ja auch eine längere Belichtungszeit möglich gewesen wäre. Seltsamerweise ist das Verhalten aber bei Belichtungszeiten kürzer als 1/60, also z.B. bei 1/120 nicht so, d.h. die Kamera reagiert aus meiner Sicht richtig.

Es fühlt sich so an, wie wenn speziell das 1/60 als irgendeine Grenze in der Firmware definiert ist, d.h. die Kamera versucht längere Belichtungszeiten zu vermeiden.

Bei einer Recherche im Internet habe ich festgestellt, dass dieses Verhalten auch bei anderen Leica-Q Besitzern zu Verwirrung führt…

Daher die Frage: Ist es ein Bug oder ein Feature? Und wird dies ggf. mal mit einem Firmware-Upgrade angepasst?

 

Answer 1 from Leica

 

vielen Dank für Ihre Anfrage.

 

Wie Sie bereits schon erwähnt haben ist dieses so im Algorithmus der Automatiken hinterlegt.

In der Programmautomatik P gilt ISO Erhöhung vor Verwacklung und es wird die Belichtungszeit bis 1/60 erhöht und dann die ISO.

Wenn Sie die ISO-Begrenzung niedriger ansetzen wird auch die von Ihnen gewählte Belichtungszeit von 1/15 erreicht.

Diese gilt auch für die Zeitautomatik A , erst wenn Sie einen hohen Blendenwert wählen wird die Belichtungszeit niedriger als 1/60 gewählt.

 

Dieses ist so gewünscht und wurde dem entsprechend so in der Kamera Firmware hinterlegt und stellt kein Fehler der Leica Q dar.

 

Sollten Sie weitere Fragen haben können sie mich jederzeit erneut kontaktieren.

Thanks for your request. As you already mentioned this behavior part of the algorithm of the automatic modes. In P-mode raising ISO has a higher priority than blurred pictures and the exposure time will be longer until 1/60 and then ISO will be raised. But if you set the Max ISO lower, then you will reach the chosen exposure time of 1/15. This behavior is also for A; if you choose a higher aperture Value / close the aperture there will be a exposure time lower than 1/60. 

 

This is a desired behavior and thus it is implemented in the Firmware and no bug of the Leica Q.

 

If you have any questions don't hesitate to contact me.

 

My Answer:

 

 

Sehr geehrter Herr x,

 

vielen Dank für Ihre Antwort. So ganz verstehe ich dann das Verhalten der ISO Automatik trotzdem nicht. Denn wieso kann der Anwender die maximale, für ihn akzeptable Belichtungszeit in der ISO-Automatik definieren, wenn vom Hersteller selbst eine grenze bei 1/60 definiert ist. Hier kann man quasi nicht selbst frei entscheiden.

 

Vom ISO-Rauschverhalten wäre ja bei der Q sogar 6400 akzeptabel, aber das Problem ist, dass die Kamera dann bis auf 6400 nach oben geht bevor sie die Belichtungszeit von 1/60 auf 1/30 erhöht wird. Bei dieser Bauart, dem Verschluss und der Bildstabilisierung ist sogar 1/15 und auch 1/8 als Belichtungszeit möglich. Das schönere Bild hat man mit 1/30 + 3200 anstatt mit 1/60 + 6400 (Beide werden nicht verwackelt sein)

 

Für Rauscharme Bilder müsste ich dann Max ISO auf 1600 stellen, damit längere Belichtungszeiten kommen. Aber in Extremsituationen bin ich dann eben auf 1600 limitiert... Bei anderen Kameraherstellern (z.B. Nikon) wird der ISO erst dann erhöht, wenn die maximal zulässige Belichtungsdauer erreicht ist. 

 

Da bei Leica ja immer das Ziel die beste Bildqualität ist, verstehe ich dieses Verhalten nicht (und viele andere Q-Kunden ebenfalls nicht, siehe https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266969-leica-q-auto-iso-question/ )

 

Am besten wäre es wenn man im Auto-ISO eine Priorität festlegen könnte 

 

Priorität auf: 

              a ) kurze Belichtungszeiten / 

              b ) niedrige ISO-Werte

 

 

Können sie das Problem bzw. meine Ansicht auch ein bisschen nachvollziehen? Vielleicht gibts ja doch eine Chance für eine Firmware-Anpassung

 

Bitte verstehen Sie mich nicht falsch. Die Leica Q ist eine Top Kamera. Sie ist meine erste Leica und ich würde sie jederzeit wiederkaufen. 

Dear Mr. X

 

​Thanks for your answer. I still don't understand the behavior of the Auto-ISO. Why can the user define a max acceptable exposure time when there is also a threshold at 1/60 by the manufacturer? In this case the user cannot decide. 

 

The noise behavior of the Q is also acceptable at 6400 but the problem is, that the camera then will prefer 6400 more than 1/30. The construction of the Q, the shutter, the OIS would also allow a exposure time of 1/15 or even 1/8. The image is prettier with 1/30 and 3200 instead of 1/60 and 6400 (both won't be blurred).

 

For pictures with low noise I have to set Max-ISO to 1600 so that there will be longer exposure times. But then I am limited to 1600 in extreme situations. Other camera manufacturers (eg Nikon) raise ISO only, when the max exposure time is reached. 

 

As Leica has always the target "the best image quality" me and other Q-customers don't understand this behavior. See https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/266969-leica-q-auto-iso-question/

 

Best would be a priority in the Auto-ISO setting:

 

Priority:

    a ) short exposure time

    b ) low ISO

 

Do you comprehend my view of things? Perhaps there is a chance for a firmware-change? Please don't understand my wrong, the Leica Q is a very good camera. My first Leica and I would buy it again.

 

Answer from Leica:

 

Dear Mr. Y

 

sicherlich könnte man im Algorithmus einiges ändern , die beginnende 1/60 s wurde so gewählt um Verwacklungen zu vermeiden.

meiner Meinung nach kann man dieses zumindest noch auf 1/30 hochsetzen.

Es handelt sich ja um eine Automatik und keinen manuellen Modus , da werden unsere Kollegen sicherlich keinen höheren Wert als 1/30 s integrieren.

Man setzt hier ja nur eine Begrenzung nach oben oder unten , aber die Automatik wird immer soweit möglich Werte wählen um ein korrektes Bild zu erhalten

was ich auch für vollkommen richtig halte.

Ich habe dieses unseren Kollegen von der Entwicklungsabteilung weitergeleitet um sich das nochmals näher anzusehen.

Ob man hier Änderungen einführt oder wann kann ich Ihnen leider nicht beantworten.

Sie können aber versichert sein das meine Kollegen dieses nochmals näher überprüfen.

 

of course some changes in the algorithm could be changed, but the 1/60 border was chosen to avoid blurred pictures. In my opinion it could be changed up to 1/30. But it is a automatic mode and not a manual mode and my colleagues won't implement a value longer than 1/30. You set the limit higher or lower but the automatic will always choose values to get a correct image. 

 

i have forwarded this conversation to the development team to doublecheck this feature. But I cannot give you an ansewer, if a change will be implemented and when. But you can be sure that my colleagues will have a close look to this behavior.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Krusty

[Bart van Hofwegen]

Hi Krusty, first of all thank you for the effort of writing Leica. What amazes me is that you received a reply. What, unfortunately, does not amaze me at all is the reply itself. They describe a behavior without mentioning the exact values for ISO, Aperture and Shutter speed and how they interact but simply say this behavior is "so gewünscht". The latter raises a question on my part: "so gewünscht", by whom? Not me, and I cannot really imagine anyone who would want to have the way it is right now. I have a lot of camera's on which I use auto ISO, but not the Q. It is not completely useless in general I guess, but utterly useless for me. As a result, I hardly use the Q in low light situations where I want to be sure shutter speed does not drop below a certain limit that is already low. What use is the OIS if you cannot have this?

 

What is the use of 1/60 when setting a high ISO limit and lower when setting a lower ISO ??? This puzzles me the most... what the **** is the rationale behind this?

 

Like I said I own many camera's, they all have their quirks and misses, but this is more than that, it is a failure. On my list of idiotic issues with firmware, this has a very high position. There is no excuse. On my list of reasons not to recommend the Q to certain types of shooters, this holds a high position also.

 

But: I will now also write them myself, and maybe other readers who agree with you and me should do that too. I do not believe we will get what we want, but at least then we tried. I will post any answers I get here.

 

Again, thanks for the effort!

[Krusty]

Hi,

 

my last mail in this conversation was:

 

Sehr geehrter Herr X,

 

vielen Dank für die Info und dass Sie die Anfrage an die Entwicklung weitergeleitet haben. Am besten für die Bildqualität wäre es, wenn der ISO Wert erst dann nach oben geht, wenn die Kamera nicht mehr länger belichten darf. Wenn es dann verwackelt ist, dann weiß der Fotograf immerhin, woran es liegt und er kann dann selbst die max. Belichtungsdauer in den ISO-Einstellungen reduzieren... So hat man immer das geringste Rauschen... und alle Einstellungen liegen in der Hand des Kunden, weil die Kamera genau das macht, was eingestellt ist und nicht noch eine weiter interne Logik hat, die nicht jeder kennt.

 

Wie gesagt, das ist derzeit der einzige Punkt, der mich an der Q stört! Alles andere ist wirklich perfekt!

 

Dear Mr. X

 

Thanks for your information and that you forwarded the request to your development team. The best behavior for the image quality would be, that ISO only raises if there is no longer exposure time allowed. If then there will be a blurred image, then the user knows what was the mistake and he can change the max exposure time in the ISO settings. Then you will have always the lowest noise... and all settings are in the hand of the user because the camera makes exactly that, what is defined by the user and not what is defined in a not obvious internal logic.

 

​that is the only issue with my Leica Q. The rest is really perfect.

Edited January 17, 2018 by Krusty

[Krusty]

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So my call to all affected Q-customers:

 

As the Leica development team has the link to this conversation... please conduct a factual discussion to this topic and spread this information to other Q-users you know or link other posts in other forums into this conversation and vice versa so that the development team sees, how important this change is.

 

In my opinion there should not be a internal barrier / threshold.

 

Version a : ISO only raises if the max exposure time is reached. And when the user chooses 1/8 than it should also only raise if 1/8 is reached. It is his decision.

 

Version b : Implement a priority which can be changed by the user. Low ISO versus short exposure.

 

But to be honest: Only version a makes sense for a pure / raw / crafted camera manufacturer as Leica is...

 

PS: A discussion in the German part of this forum can be found here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/250214-längste-verschlusszeit-was-hat-leica-sich-dabei-gedacht/page-7#entry3442389

Edited January 17, 2018 by Krusty

[Bart van Hofwegen]

Version a : ISO only raises if the max exposure time is reached. And when the user chooses 1/8 than it should also only raise if 1/8 is reached. It is his decision.

 

 

I Agree on version A, the most direct and useful option. Also what any new user would expect. 

[Leica Guy]

I Agree on version A, the most direct and useful option. Also what any new user would expect.

+1. Exactly how I wish it worked. Anything else is arbitrary and inconsistent with other industry standard practices.

[uffehagen]

Version A is also how I wish it worked. It is the way my Nikons do it, as it is now, the only way for me is to use manuel aperture combined with auto ISO

Edited January 18, 2018 by uffehagen

[PaulJohn]

Version A makes the most sense. With Q having vibration reduction 1/30 and slower are very usable.

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[fizzy]

interesting discussion. I was with my Q the other day and was wondering why I couldn't increase shutter in Auto ISO. I then just activated the stabilizer, set ISO to A and shutter to 1/15 and the Q automatically kept ISO lower. 

[prk60091]

maybe i am having a senior moment (it may because i am not getting the distinction who is writing whom in the exchange above in German)... but i am not understanding  how the Q auto-iso is supposed to work and the reasoning behind it.

[Krusty]

interesting discussion. I was with my Q the other day and was wondering why I couldn't increase shutter in Auto ISO. I then just activated the stabilizer, set ISO to A and shutter to 1/15 and the Q automatically kept ISO lower.

Okay but then you choose a manual exposure time. But if you use the A-mode (manual aperture, automatic shutter) you will run in the same problem and you have unnecessary noisy pictures... right?

 

 

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[fizzy]

yes, but so far it was no big issue for me. I use auto ISO and a-mode (auto shutter) only during street and there I set minimum aperture anyway to around 1/125 or 1/250. So I only have this issue when I try make it less than 1/60. And for me this is only the case if I shoot objects in low light which are not moving at all. So I have the time and can manual adjust the shutter if I see the Q is increasing too much ISO and 1/15 or below is still possible.

[Guest]

yes, but so far it was no big issue for me. I use auto ISO and a-mode (auto shutter) only during street and there I set minimum aperture anyway to around 1/125 or 1/250. So I only have this issue when I try make it less than 1/60. And for me this is only the case if I shoot objects in low light which are not moving at all. So I have the time and can manual adjust the shutter if I see the Q is increasing too much ISO and 1/15 or below is still possible.

 

 

I too find the Q's auto-iso implementation completely useless (polite for idiotic).  After all, what is the point of offering a minimum shutter speed option if it is never going to be used?  I mostly end up selecting ISO manually, which for my shooting style can be done quickly enough. 

Edited January 19, 2018 by Guest

[Tailwagger]

It really is silly. If I tell the camera I'm willing to shoot at 2"s max before bumping the ISO,  it should honor that request, regardless of whether or not Leica engineers think I'm insane for doing so. The photographer is the one in the moment, making the decisions as to aperture, speed, ev, and yes, iso. Bumping up ISO automatically is only useful if and only if the maximum exposure time is exceeded. No matter how stupid Leica engineers might view it, if I set max to 1/8", thats the number I expect to see in the EXIF when the ISO is not at 100.   And if their so wed to a max of 1/60", then why even bother asking for a MAX ISO value. The might as well exceed that whenever they feel like as well. 

[Krusty]

Just fo instance: set the max iso to 50.000. set the max exposure time to 1/15. Then close step by step the aperture or go into a dark room. The camera will prefer iso 50.000 more than go from 1/60 to 1/30....

 

And don’t forget. This happens when you have chosen a manual max exposure time in auto iso. This is a automatic behavior in the max exposure time by the manufacturer in a manual setting. And then there is also a „max exposure time = auto“ setting as well... what is the difference? They can put this behavior in the auto setting and should keep the manual setting as clean as possible!

 

If they change it, then the auto iso (eg 6400) long exposure time and the image stabilisator start to make a real sense. Just imagine about the low noise available light pictures.

[Krusty]

Hi again,

 

does anybody own a Leica SL? I think this model is the closest related camera to the q! How is the behavior there?

 

Regards,

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica Q

[Krusty]

Hi all,

 

I can‘t stop playing with the Auto-ISO and i think there is another bug:

 

- Limit the auto ISO to 800

- Limit the max exposure time to 1/125

- Set shutter time wheel to „a“ and choose aperture 5.6 (camera is in a-mode)

 

If you are in a room with dim light, the exposure meter in the evf shows no under-exposure. But when you take a picture, it is underexposed. The exposure meter is not working... this is a BUG !