Is the Leica SL doomed?

[dkCambridgeshire]

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The first three SL mount lenses were planned and designed together: 24-90, 90-280 and 50 "the reference lens", all share the similar design, monstrosity, 82mm front element. Leica listened. Majority of users don't want the monsters. The new primes will be smaller, leaner, lighter – can't wait for the 75 summicron.

 

Before the SL was announced, there had been a lot of anticipation for a Q-like body with replaceable lenses. I was one hoping for it. Instead we were graced with a bridge body that sits >between< M and S, rather than sitting >alongside< M to rid of the troublesome RF, and offer alternative to it.

 

Jappv, you're a purist, a long life M user, I suspect. I've come to the Leica world from Canon / Fuji / Sony and I couldn't care less about the Leica religion and don't care about a 50 mm anchor. I want a system that makes sense to me. Give me those smaller lighter Summicrons now!!

 

 

You cannot have any of those small mythical SL Summicron lenses 'now!' or anytime in the future - and if you read the history and design methodology of telecentric Leica SL lenses (it's well documented within the SL sub-forum and elsewhere) you'll likely find out why and thus maybe remedy your unreasonable cravings and expectations. Furthermore, there will not be an interchangeable lens Q - but there might be fixed lens variants as hinted by the Q design team - also documented within the Leica Forum (which has an excellent search facility available for all to use). 

 

dunk

Edited November 25, 2016 by dkCambridgeshire

[wattsy]

There is a 'block' function ...

But I would agree with you, I often feel hostility at this forum.

 

 

You can't block a moderator. I've tried.

[steppenw0lf]

Nothing new, no new ideas (since 10/2015). This article is a waste of time. Like most bloggers writing about the SL.

This style is quite useless, whatever the camera is that is "critically acclaimed". A typical blogger, extremely self-centred, fishing for all sorts of far-fetched comparisons. Not even close to a "photographers view". (A technical freak's view)

An "award-winning" photographer that did not add a single photo shot with the camera he talks about.

 

Only exceptions I found in the web until now:

- Wildlight about the SL used for birding. Critical but fair.  Clearly stating weaknesses. A photographers view. (photos!)

- Jono Slack about how to make good use of the SL. Emphasis on how to use its strengths. A photographers view.

 

 

P.S:

When I take the time to read such an article I would like to learn anything new. And not being told that everything is exactly as the author predicted a year ago, though he never found it worthwhile to use the gadget/camera.

He is not using the electronic Ms, he is not using the SL, but he thinks he can tell exactly what their problem is. He knows exactly what is stacking up against it.

Took the time to list all the gazillion scenarios that work against it, but not once the time how to make good use of it. Then why write about it ? And why read it ?

Edited November 25, 2016 by steppenw0lf

[IkarusJohn]

You can't block a moderator. I've tried.

I do - two of them. The forum is much better!

[meerec]

You cannot have any of those small mythical SL Summicron lenses 'now!' or anytime in the future - and if you read the history and design methodology of telecentric Leica SL lenses (it's well documented within the SL sub-forum and elsewhere) you'll likely find out why and thus maybe remedy your unreasonable cravings and expectations. Furthermore, there will not be an interchangeable lens Q - but there might be fixed lens variants as hinted by the Q design team - also documented within the Leica Forum (which has an excellent search facility available for all to use). 

 

dunk

Summicron 75 in June next year

[earleygallery]

Your persistently negative comments are one of the reasons I rarely bother with this forum any more.

 

Seems ironic to knock someone for being negative when the post is about an article that's mostly negative in its content!

 

I've had a read of the link and I shouldn't have bothered, it's nothing that's not already been mooted on this forum since the SL was introduced. There are some valid points but I reckon that Leica have a better idea of their future plans than another blogger. 

[dkCambridgeshire]

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Summicron 75 in June next year

 

 

 

But will not be small 

 

dunk 

[luigi bertolotti]

Not an article so clear and straightforward... he ranges from S line to T being, it seems, not a user of any digital Leica...  , anyway, anyone has the right to post anything he likes on a personal page/blog/newsletter...

What I really haven't understood well is where he looks surprised that the Summilux 50 for SL is "so big" though the sensor has not such a big pixel count..  : I didn't know that  a massive pile of pixels do charge their weight and volume inside a lens' barrel...

Edited November 28, 2016 by luigi bertolotti

[LD_50]

Not an article so clear and straightforward... he ranges from S line to T being, it seems, not a user of any digital Leica...  , anyway, anyone has the right to post anything he likes on a personal page/blog/newsletter...

What I really haven't understood well is where he looks surprised that the Summilux 50 for SL is "so big" though the sensor has not such a big pixel count..  : I didn't know that  a massive pile of pixels do charge their weight and volume inside a lens' barrel...

I believe his point is that the larger Summilux lens (large to support high quality) will be wasted with a 24 MP sensor. This is extremely short-sighted in my opinion. I prefer the lenses be "future-proof" for higher resolution sensors surely coming later. Smaller size should be available as well, perhaps a line of slower primes like the Summicrons.

[ramarren]

I believe the author's only point is that he dislikes the SL and justifies that opinion on the basis of high price, few native lenses, large size lenses. And then he expands that statement of opinion to being a 'business analysis' to make it sound credible rather than simply stating it as his opinion and rationale. In other words, a lot of hot air.

[jaapv]

I believe his point is that the larger Summilux lens (large to support high quality) will be wasted with a 24 MP sensor. This is extremely short-sighted in my opinion

Not just short-sighted. Nonsense. Put a high resolving lens on a DMR and see what it does :). the point is that the higher resolution will have a positive impact on microcontrast and it shows.

[Guest VVJ]

But will not be small 

 

dunk 

 

They look smaller on the pictures but not by that much... perhaps 700-800g?

[meerec]

But will not be small 

 

dunk

 

Smaller than the zoom monsters and the "reference" 50

I think I will like the size

[Peter Branch]

Not just short-sighted. Nonsense. Put a high resolving lens on a DMR and see what it does :). the point is that the higher resolution will have a positive impact on microcontrast and it shows.

 

The key to understanding this effect is to realise that there is no such thing as a "higher resolution" lens.

 

What is being referred to as a higher resolution lens is a lens which exhibits higher contrast retention, (MTF), at higher frequencies, (lpmm).

 

Some very early Leica lenses resolve very high frequencies - but at very low, contrast.  This is easily seen on an optical bench but not in photographs.

 

Every sensor has a resolution limit as a result of the pixel structure etc. however the contrast at that limiting resolution will be higher with the "better" lens - and that is always visible in the image files.

[geetee1972]

It seems odd to question what the SL does that other cameras do not already do. There are at least three things I can think of (and are the reason I sold my A7R2 and bought an SL).

 

First, it has the most wonderful EVF which means I can actually manually focus with complete accuracy, even at very wide apertures. For me, this was not possible with the A7r2; focus peaking was not accurate and magnified view did not provide enough clarity to make an accurate judgement. It was terribly frustrating.

 

Second, you can use M-mount lenses without any compromise. Again, this is just not possible on the A7r2 or any other mirrorless camera. For one you cannot focus them accurately and for another many lenses less than 75mm focal length just don’t work properly (35mm and less only offer about 30% useable images at f/5.6 or wider).

 

Third, and this may well seem trivial but try living with the alternatives for any length of time and it might well bother you, the noise that the SL’s shutter makes is lovely. The noise on any of the Sony alternatives is god awful and other mirrorless cameras like the Fuji X-Pro 2 may be equally nice but they aren’t comparable products.

 

There are other benefits but these are the three that persuaded me to buy an SL.

[Peter H]

..................................The noise on any of the Sony alternatives is god awful and other mirrorless cameras like the Fuji X-Pro 2 may be equally nice but they aren’t comparable products.

 

............................

 

 

Sorry for picking up on this one point, but it strikes me that they are comparable cameras.

 

In another thread we've been told that the difference between a larger sensor like that in the Hasselblad X1D and a smaller one such as the SL's is irrelevant for most users unless they print above A2 size or similar. I happen not to agree with that, but it appears that plenty do, so for them, the difference in sensor size is not all that relevant a factor except when making particularly large prints. So in that context the differences between the 24mp Fujis and the SL are not so great either. 

 

The X-Pro 2 has a viewfinder that is sufficiently different from the SL's to warrant a serious comparison, since, because of their differences, it isn't possible to determine that one is definitively superior to the other, only that one suits your methodology better than the other.  So I'd say they are comparable products, and their differences may or may not be significant to you, and that is a personal decision for each of us to make.

[geetee1972]

 

is irrelevant for most users unless they print above A2 size or similar.

This is true but there is more to sensor size than simple resolution. If that were not the case (and I know you probably agree with me again we are singing happily to each other) then we'd all be happy using 24mp PAS cameras.

 

The Fujis are however bad examples in the mirrorless fraternity because they, more than anyone else except perhaps Leica, have got the 'film look' on digital nailed. The way their cameras render is sublime and so perhaps more than is comfortable to admit, they are comparable products.

[lct]

It seems odd to question what the SL does that other cameras do not already do. There are at least three things I can think of (and are the reason I sold my A7R2 and bought an SL).

 

First, it has the most wonderful EVF which means I can actually manually focus with complete accuracy, even at very wide apertures. For me, this was not possible with the A7r2; focus peaking was not accurate and magnified view did not provide enough clarity to make an accurate judgement. It was terribly frustrating.

 

Second, you can use M-mount lenses without any compromise. Again, this is just not possible on the A7r2 or any other mirrorless camera. For one you cannot focus them accurately and for another many lenses less than 75mm focal length just don’t work properly (35mm and less only offer about 30% useable images at f/5.6 or wider).

 

Third, and this may well seem trivial but try living with the alternatives for any length of time and it might well bother you, the noise that the SL’s shutter makes is lovely. The noise on any of the Sony alternatives is god awful and other mirrorless cameras like the Fuji X-Pro 2 may be equally nice but they aren’t comparable products.

 

There are other benefits but these are the three that persuaded me to buy an SL.

 

Well i have nothing to sell here but my A7s mod is totally silent and works beautifully with most of my 30+ M lenses so far. As for focusing it could hardly be easier with image magnification. Only gripe i must press twice the C1 button which is ideally placed near the shutter release. Once would be enough. If i need more resolution i will choose an A7r2 mod then most probably. A smaller SL with better ergonomics could do it as well but i don't hold my breath. 

 

[geetee1972]

 

A7s mod is totally silent

The A7r2 has a silent mode as well but I found that very odd and it also cuts down the dynamic range (apparently).

 

 

works beautifully with most of my 30+ M lenses so far

 

Have you tried it with a 35mm Summicron at f/2 - f/5.6? The smearing is so bad in the outer portion of the frame. I never tried a 50mm but I did have a 75mm Summicron for a while and that worked very well.

 

 

As for focusing it could hardly be easier with image magnification

 

And yet this is what I struggled with the most. My eyes are OK (they were recently tested) but I really had to strain to see the focus. It was possibly, but uncomfortable and unrewarding to do. The SL makes it a breeze and a joy.

 

None of which is meant to deny your experience in any way and if you're happy with your A7s then that's cool with me.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[lct]

My A7s has been modded by Kolari Vision.